Hamas vs. Israel Rewrites Social Media Norms

Channel: Alex Kantrowitz

Published at: 2023-10-16

YouTube video id: z6o5g8KPDGo

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6o5g8KPDGo

algardi is here Reed welcome thank you
so much for having me thanks for being
here so you're the technology editor at
semur we quote your work all the time in
the big technology newsletter it's great
to have you here uh to talk about a very
eventful week of news Ronan Roy is out
this week and so let's start with the
big story um which is of course terrible
conflict between Israel and Hamas right
now um you know if if you're listening
I'm sure you know the details any
civilian life is disaster when it's lost
especially in the name of political ends
uh and what we're seeing play out on
social media is quite fascinating uh
this has first been a moment where
people are starting to point to what's
going on on Twitter or X whatever you
want to call it and saying that it's a
disaster and filled with misinformation
that's coming from every angle and you
know basically there's nothing that you
can
trust I do want to put out an
alternative perspective on that which is
that yes Twitter or X has is a mess it's
always been a mess I think people are
getting hipped to the idea that it's
filled with
misinformation and I I I personally
think that they can sift out decently
well what is actually happening by going
into this stuff with a better BS filter
than we give the average person credit
for to me it seems like you go onto
these platforms you know you're going to
see chaos and then you go to secondary
sources that you trust places like the
times or the journal or whatever the BBC
whatever you read and then and people
end up putting a a bringing a bigger you
know more broad picture of what's going
on as opposed to just saying oh I saw
that on social media and I just believe
it and so to me the this concept of like
the fact that they're filled with
misinformation and poisoning the
discourse um is starting to become
outdated Reed I'm curious what I mean
it's kind of a controversial position
but I'm curious what you think about
that I actually it's funny I I wish I
could debate you on this but I I
actually have very similar viws I mean I
I said in my I mean I basically said the
same thing in our newsletter this week
which is I think it's sort of ironic
that you see a lot of the sort of
opinion leaders in in the media in the
tech media who are sort of lamenting the
fact that Twitter is not the same old
Twitter and that they would sort of be
glued to to Twitter normally during a
big world event like this and they're
not and why can't um threads become that
right um I think we we saw some
commentary like that and I I think it's
really ironic to me I mean the same
people who were sort of raking Facebook
over the Kohls for how they handled news
and and you know this public information
are now asking the same company to come
back and and and replace Twitter and
become this this place for news I I
think it's it would be great if if the
technology industry got out of the news
business and and really focused on
actual technology and not just user
generated
content yeah another controversial no I
mean we're going to talk about that too
because I'm getting raped over the ks
about that for a controversial thread
that I posted
and and I promised that I was going to
cover it on the Pod today so we're going
to get to that but just to keep you know
peeling This Thread apart I mean oh God
that was a pun uh I was on Twitter
really you know in the primary primary
source information and there were things
that I saw that were you know videos
taken from uh video games for instance I
think that like you know you can take a
look at what's going on on social media
take a look at the reports like nobody's
just on Twitter and they're not you know
if you're just on Twitter of course
you're you're going to be going to
places like the Wall Street Journal the
time semore and and actually checking
what happened and so to think that like
people are just convinced of one
narrative or the other because they saw
one thing on social media that was fake
to me is just it's almost disrespectful
to the users themselves and it really
has a small it doesn't mean that social
media can't shift an opinion but this
idea that you know one fake video or a
few fake videos is going to really
change you know person's mind to me it
sounds ridiculous no that's totally
right and you know apologies for getting
ahead of you here on this but yeah I I
think that's right too we're seeing
we've seen so many studies that have
come out since Cambridge analytica that
have basically backed up that point of
view which is like you know even though
there's tons of information on so
disinformation on social media people
are not really ultimately swayed by that
or elections are not really swayed what
really happens is people go on social
media and some people look for
information that supports their
worldview and they don't really care if
it's accurate or not um they kind of
just want to read the most salacious
content and you know I think the the
pizz gate uh controversy was like a good
example of that do we really think that
you know that independent voters went on
and read about pizzagate and were swayed
to to vote Republican
um it It ultimately doesn't have as big
of an impact as I think people fear um
and I think you know you're right I mean
people can ultimately like you know the
the people who sort of I think are the
ones that we want to reach right the the
those those like conscientious voters
they can sort of tell the difference um
and I read I read an interesting column
in um harit this week that that sort of
lamented the fact that you know
the television new like the Broadcast
News was sort of too slow to get
information out and then you know
Twitter was was doing it quickly but
there was tons of information and it
just sort of made me think I mean this
is when you're trying to get real time
information about a situation like this
whether it's this or Ukraine or whatever
the faster the information comes out the
more flawed it's going to be and I think
people just need to sort of accept that
if you want if you want to read only
information you know only articles that
have been like fully reported and every
single fact is nailed down then you you
kind of just need to wait and not be you
know on the socials
247 exactly and I I personally like if
you feel like you have even a modum of
news literacy and the ability to make
sense of these ideals and maybe I'm
overestimating this because I am a
professional journalist but like you
could I found X to be extremely useful
actually in the early hours just to
figure out what's going on however
horrible it was now there has been an
interesting shifting of norms which I
want to talk to you about which is that
the right has long come after the left
for cancel culture basic basically
holding up things that people might have
said at one time and you know contacting
their employer or making it public and
and making sure that there's enough
scorn that this these people's lives are
ruined and now there's actually been a a
a almost I think Marshall kasoff who's a
host of the realignment calls this you
know a reverse or cancel culture or a
can cancel culture flip aoo uh
Switcheroo and what we've seen actually
is there have been members of the left
that have come out and they have praised
hamas's actions on uh this P last
weekend right where they killed all the
innocent civilians I mean we're talking
about a death toll of like around 1300
maybe 200 of them uh were military
and and what's happened is the right has
has basically elevated the people who
have uh uh you know came out in Praise
of Hamas and caused the same situation
to happen to them so there was this for
instance this NYU uh Law Bar Association
president her name was sorry their name
is Rina Workman um who said that the
attack was necessary sort of a necessary
outcome and a need of for
resistance um and they were working they
were had a job offer from this firm
Winston and straw and was raked over the
coals to the point where Winston and
straw uh canceled her letter of
employment or their letter of employment
so I'm curious what what you make of
this uh is this sort of like the end of
this like sort of debate over cancel
culture I mean to me it seems like you
know this whole this whole thing might
have been silly like basically like if
you say dumb things and do dumb things
there's going to be consequences no
matter who you are what side of the
aisle you sit on yeah I it's a really
interesting way of put it the cancel
culture flip aoo there's so much
hypocrisy on on every side of that right
as you as you pointed out and it's the
same thing with the Free Speech debate
right everybody everybody wants free
speech until their speech they don't
like and then they want to silence it
right and you know I I think we should
take a step back and look at this and
and say look I mean I think it's
horrible that people would come out and
and praise Hamas I mean just I I could
not disagree more I think it's there's
probably a lot of anti semitism behind
that also a certain level of callousness
after you see so many like families
murdered together and you the context
not withstanding no matter what happens
your family gets murdered together
whether they're in Israel or Gaza or
wherever to come out and praise the
people who did that is Craven and it's
sick yeah I completely agree with that I
mean it's it's it's horrible and you
know I am I am Jewish and you know it's
it's it's very painful to watch I mean I
think there's we're still sort of all in
the The Grieving period right now and
but I I think you know I still sort of
it still kind of makes me uncomfortable
that this person would would lose their
job or that the thing that really was
bad I thought was that I think it was um
I think it was Amman right who was call
Bill Amman who was calling for like a
list of of names of people to you know
who who like signed on to these letters
at universities and I don't know I mean
people do dumb things they say dumb
things when they're in college um their
views change I think I think you know we
should be like somewhat understanding
about words um and and that goes I think
across the the political Spectrum I I
think the can the early cancel culture
which was which came from the left where
you know we were people were being like
sort of having their lives ruined for
for callous or you know kind of dumb
things they said on Twitter I mean that
made me
uncomfortable um you know I think people
just need to sometimes have a little
more just be a little more understanding
give people a little bit more leeway and
maybe try to persuade them or like
change their worldview if you don't
agree with it rather than just try to
silence
it yeah it's it's a good point so I
personally saw there's a truck that was
driving around Harvard uh this week
which had like the names and faces I
believe of some of the people in these
student organizations that had signed on
uh a letter condemning Israel in the
face of the Hamas attacks that to me
felt overboard the the Rhino Workman
thing is is a little bit more
complicated I mean to have somebody come
out full-throated in support of a terror
group that just lit up you know 1400
people and took a bunch of hostages I
mean to me I think it's well within the
rights of an employer to say listen
you're going to be working next to
people um and I don't think the people
in our Law Firm are going to want
someone that supports a terrorist group
with them you made a mistake there
consequence for a mistake I don't think
this has anything to do with cancel
culture or whatever it is simply a
matter of fact that that you you have to
have values in a company you know and
and when it comes down to it if they
don't want to have that person working
at their firm I think they're within
their rights just and I'm sure no and
I'm sure they have policies about social
media and sort of saying things that
could embarrass The Firm I mean every
company does and imagine mentions and
like the phone the voicemails of the
partners after they I mean they saw that
oh yeah of yeah and of course I mean
you're talking about you know a firm in
New York who probably has many many Jews
working there and you know we're still I
mean it's it's it it actually kind of
shows a real lack of judgment to do that
and I think that's that may be the the
bigger issue um or the more pertinent
issue right where where you're talking
about employing someone at a you know
very prestigious Law Firm like that yeah
do you I mean it's kind of this thing
bubbled up on social media this week I
it's worth bringing up that I'm curious
what you think about these folks that
are like all into like social activism
all throughout college and then they
just go ahead and take a job at a
corporate law firm it's like feels so in
congruous to me but right well I think
everybody's a little bit hypocritical uh
that's my that's my my world viiew as I
as I as I get older I mean we all we all
are hypocritical we all you know like I
talk about climate change and drive a
you know an SUV around the Bay Area and
it's it's it's
you know you can't escapee that um so
I've I've tried not to judge people as
much these days but I do agree it's
ironic sometimes it's hard so one more
thing about this which is you mentioned
it but the Free Speech debate so we
heard so much uh about from the right
especially about the right to free
speech and it's sort of interesting
because this whole Free Speech movement
started on the left like if you think
about like the big protests in Berkeley
back in the 70s this was all about free
speech and the right to anything on
campus um and obviously it seems like
things have shifted but one thing I am
particularly uncomfortable is with is
the prevention of so even supporters of
Hamas to be able to go and March and
show their support now obviously you
know I don't agree with it but I do
think that like the right to free
expression is fundamental and you're not
going to win a debate by shutting down
speech you'll win a debate by allowing
the marketplace of ideas to end up I
mean if you can't win a debate against
the idea of killing civilians then you
really need to reshape not only your
ideas but your actions um so let's talk
about this because there have so France
has banned Pro Palestine protests and
other countries have have done similar
things there's videos of Riot police in
France trying to break this stuff up
obviously Germany has plenty of rules
against anti-Semitism as well and you
have Dave Rubin you know who does the
Rubin report conservative voice says
maybe the West has a chance and to me
it's just like I I mean again it can't
State about how fundamentally I disagree
with everything that Hamas has said
about this situation and in general
their existence but to prevent free
speech of anybody in the west to me is
just going to sounds
counterproductive maybe I Mis yeah they
say uh what do they say two Jews three
opinions we have two Jews here and yeah
but I wish I I wish I could disagree
with
actually think you're right I mean that
that is the fundament I mean some of the
the most important you know Free Speech
cases in the US right revolved around
the rights of of neo-nazis to go to go
March um and just the the people saying
the absolute most abhorent things have a
right to to do that and that's something
in this country that you know we we hold
so dear I think we I think we all do you
know fundamentally what happens on
social media is Maybe
a slightly more complicated question but
um yeah I mean I I I agree and other
countries have different values you know
around that right I mean Germany has
obviously a different situation and
France you know they they have maybe
their reasons for for doing this but
yeah I mean I I particularly feel a lot
of Pride um living in a country that
allows people to kind of just say
whatever they want even if it's insane
um there was an amazing yeah there was
an amazing post from Ben who is uh the
president of former former uh Senator
president of Florida University
basically said um listen we believe in
free speech in this country we're going
to allow anybody I think his words were
to make an idiot of themselves in public
however the second that crosses from
speech to something else speech to
violence we will we will be prepared to
respond in the fullest degree and I I
think that personally is that the that's
the right approach yeah no I totally
agree um let you do you need to get
that no okay yeah I mean I'll wait till
it
sus go ahead yeah yeah I mean yeah I I I
completely agree with that and I I I
sense that you know we've the pendulum
is kind of swinging back from I think a
place where you know I think people
people were maybe a little bit
hysterical and I think everyone sort you
know we had we had you know the election
of Donald Trump we had the pandemic all
of these things kind of really were a
test of of all of these norms and and
ideology that we have around around
speech um and I think we're I think
we're coming back I hear more and more
people kind of expressing these
sentiments um on both sides of the
political Spectrum it's not just people
on the right calling for you know a bit
of a more levelheaded view on speech
right it's also people on the left and I
think you know and and you and I sort of
agreeing on this you know and feeling
comfortable talking about it I think a
sign of that as well yeah okay so I said
I said last thing but I have one more
part of this that I think we really
should dig into which is as I've been
watching this unfold I'm curious whether
I mean social media no doubt is a place
where extreme viewpoints are posted to
get a reaction and one of the things
I've been curious about as I've seen
this unfold is whether social media is
actually a moderating force or a force
that's making things more extreme I'll
give you two examples so there was a
tweet from BLM Chicago that had a
caption on it that says that is all that
is it and there was a photo that said
something like free Palestine that was
lionizing with a image of somebody
coming in on a par parachute uh which is
how Hamas attacked the festival in
southern Israel so then there were also
messages from the Israeli side that were
dehumanizing people in Gaza and saying
that they were animals human animals and
in each of those instances I saw loads
of people quote tweeting those messages
and talking about how awful they were
and I felt Shifting the conversation
more towards the moderation and more
towards the center I I
suppose I mean this is kind of a crazy
thing to say because I'm not sure it's
true maybe it's easier to be moderate
when like extreme is involves killing
people um but I did I did find some
optimism there I don't yeah I mean I
think I think it's the latter I think I
think in this kind of a situation when
people post things that are so
incendiary like that the natural
reaction is for people to kind of like
pull back and say wait a minute that's
going too far I think if you take a step
back and you look at social media you
know its influence on society over the
last you know whatever it is 20 years 15
years um I think it's I I don't think
you can say it's been it's had a
moderating effect um right but I I do
think it's less but I I think it's less
important than people think I think
people put so much emphasis on what is
said by you know Anonymous trolls on
Twitter you you know they they you know
it's if you make people Anonymous and
give them a platform to say things on
social media they will just say the
craziest things and you see like you
know companies reacting to these sort of
like mobs on social media and I really
think that's a mistake I mean I think
you know I view Twitter and social media
as not the real world as a sort of
alternate World um it's almost like
society's kind of like the the back of
their mind or like a really dark part of
society's mind that you know it's like
it's like that part of your brain that
you sort of sometimes these thoughts
Bubble Up that you wish you didn't have
and you sort of push them push them back
and sort of move on people are like damn
I'm going to tweet that right I think
that is the kind of that is how people
should view social media and I I think
that's also changing I think people are
are actually sort of discounting a
little a little bit more rightly so what
is said on on these platforms okay so
that brings us to our real second
segment which is a perfect lead in read
so thank you for that which is I'm
getting absolutely destroyed on threads
today uh which is seems like that
happens to me often it's so funny it's
people on threads are very sensitive
about threads but um I am being uh
lambasted for a thread I put up there
talking about hey maybe we shouldn't
have news and social media so Blended
and the context of this is that Adam
oser who runs threads has said that
they're not going to you know ban news
but they're not going to do anything to
promote it and there's been this
movement of journalists that had really
puzzles me that have been like we need
news on threads it's the best thing that
you can do and it look it certainly
would be good for the engagement of
threads the fact that threads doesn't
have news I'm sure is actually hurting
its adoption and that meta is being
careful to bring news on the platform to
me is good it seems to to me that when
we bring news onto social media nothing
good happens right we end up giving
every every bit of news legitimacy on
there and of course the more extreme
views are are elevated diminishing the
mainstream and so much of the the
conversation happens on the social
platforms and so you end up having the
businesses uh of these actual news
organizations suffer because people are
hanging out consuming their stuff on
Twitter or Facebook and not on their
sites and not on their streams and there
you know so so I said news and social
don't mix thread would be much would
have much better engagement if it
promoted news but there would be
consequences meta isn't falling into
that trap and the News industry
shouldn't encourage it and then came the
backlash so read you're welcome to
disagree here but I'm curious what you
think I mean I I wish I could I would
love to hear a debate on this um my view
is every single journalist knows that
Twitter has never driven traffic to
stories it is so much about just ego
right and the fact that you know
journalists or important people are
reading your work and and certainly like
it's it's influential but like it like
journalists on Twitter was a niche on a
niche platform like Twitter was never a
huge platform to to begin with right I
mean Facebook always drove more traffic
that's obviously you know changed now um
now it's like Apple news Apple news is
like really a huge driver of traffic for
the the big news sites like you know
Washington Post right so again I think
this is where like we are all in our
media bubble and we think it's so
important to have like you know this
these platforms where every news story
is is shared and we can just keep you
know keep track of this up to the minute
it's like our own private newswire and
ultimately like it really doesn't matter
outside of this bubble all that much
what what is said and I I agree I don't
like the fact I never liked the fact
from day one the fact that you know news
organizations and reporters really more
specifically were so willing to
basically take their work their hard
work and sort of give it away for free
and like move everything onto these onto
these social media platforms really for
the benefit of these huge companies or
what eventually became these huge huge
companies I think it was a it was a bad
idea and it and weakened journalistic
institutions that you know I think I
think if we could turn back the clock we
would probably do things differently I
mean that's been my view on this yeah
not only that it it warps the incentives
and the pursuit of stories and
journalist minds they begin to write for
the Twitter audience and the things that
do well on Twitter are outraged same
with threads and here's an interesting
story so the Neeman lab which is comes
out of uh Harvard um just wrote this
story about how NPR NPR left Twitter
because of a dispute with Elon Musk and
it says the headline is six months ago
NPR left Twitter the effects have been
negligible the numbers confirm what many
of us have long suspected that Twitter
wasn't worth the effort at least in
terms of traffic and to see what
happened I mean it's an obvious
situation to see what happened that NPR
is basically unharmed by leaving what
many view as the most important platform
for news you know and this this push to
try to get all the news organizations on
threads and to have threads incentivized
news to me it's just like what what are
we doing here people like what what
possible uh motive do you have and I
think maybe ego is it maybe it's ego I I
totally agree there's a lot of ego um
when it comes to Twitter not discounting
its importance in terms of just like
influencing the opinion leaders like the
elite and things like that I mean I I I
agree that it's it's kind of like it
does serve that function but I remember
like when I worked at the Wall Street
Journal before Twitter this is I'm now I
sound like super old um but like before
Twitter um the thing that like drove so
much traffic was was Yahoo news and that
was because like so many computers like
the default homepage was Yahoo news and
that's sort of what's happening with
Apple news now like people just get it
and that those are the stories they see
that's how people consume news it's like
this sort of like passive thing I wish
they sat down and like opened up the
paper and read it you know but it's it's
not it's not that like people are not
most people are not like glued to to
Twitter I also want to make this point I
mean I thought um if you if you've ever
read amusing ourselves to death um by uh
Neil Postman he written in 1984 and he
talks about like how television and you
could just substitute television for
social media but he's talking about how
television has kind of become this
dumbing down the F you know it's had
this dumbing down effect and his point I
thought this is such a good point he's
like the problem is not like Mindless
entertainment like it's not the gong
show or whatever the show of the time
was it's 60 minutes it's like cuz he and
at the time there was like the Iran
hostage crisis was was going on and he
was like everyone all of a sudden had an
opinion a very strong opinion about this
country they had never heard of before
you know right and I think that's like
that was so smart and and poignant like
everyone is not an expert on Ukraine
everyone is not an expert on the Arab
Israeli conflict and they don't really
like for their daily lives it's nice to
be sort of informed but like for your
daily lives like you do not need to be
to know what's happening like every
minute of these of these conflicts
absolutely and so first of all no need
to apologize about the Yahoo reference
we're big Yahoo fans here and uh we're
going to have our Yahoo episode coming
up folks before Twitter right exactly
well Yahoo lives Reed that's my message
on that I know they're still there it's
still important and then there's like a
couple of good counterarguments to me I
mean for the sake of nuance one is that
there's going to be news anywhere anyway
on these platforms might as well have
some levelheaded and good well reported
stuff um but it's to me I would say my
Bal that is it's a balance because the
more you enable the conversation to be
there versus building your audience and
having you know your own properties that
people go to the more power you're
actually going to lose an Aggregate and
the other thing that that I heard is
that you know it's you know you could
it's easy to say if you're like a
builtup news ecosystem but if you're
like you know an Insurgent trying to get
an audience then you know don't tell me
I can't use social media and and that
sounds reasonable to me