She Wants AI To Help You Thrive, Not Just Keep You Company — Y-Lan Boureau

Channel: Alex Kantrowitz

Published at: 2025-05-28

YouTube video id: tp-VopMnkX0

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tp-VopMnkX0

Is the AI industry's obsession with
companionship and therapy misguided? And
should artificial intelligence products
really be about something else, be about
thriving? We're joined today by a
brilliant artificial intelligence
researcher and founder and CEO, Elon
Borro, who is the founder and CEO of
Thrive Pel, joining us here in studio.
Elon, great to see you. Welcome to the
show. I'm so happy to be here. Okay. So,
let me tell everybody where we met
because there's an interesting story
trying to go, right? And you have very
fascinating perspectives on where things
are heading in AI and where they should
be heading. And that was also the case
about a decade ago when we met when you
were at what was then Facebook
researching whether if you could have AI
basically go in the comments and take a
heated conversation, inject some facts,
and maybe diffuse some of the
polarization. we were seeing in society.
So talk a little bit about that
experiment and then give us your
perspective on what happened there. So
for me um working on AI has always been
about helping people live better lives.
Uh and so at the time that was like I
think back in 2015 or 2014 I don't
remember exactly but I joined I started
talking about joining Facebook in 2014
and I joined in 2015 so probably 2015 or
2016. Um, but at the time, one problem
that I thought was something that was
making a lot of people unhappy uh in
their interaction online was how they
were always fighting about stuff. And I
had this like very common sense
knee-jerk reaction that well, if you
just show people the facts, then they
won't be disagreeing so much. And you
can just show them, no, this is, you
know, this is the research that's very
solid. Um and and if you make it very
obvious and you really show uh reliable
sources that are trusted then people are
going to make it much uh find it much
easier to agree. So first is reliable
and trusted is something that that does
a lot of work and unfortunately that's
the pieces that have been like going
down and down the trust in institutions
the trust in these debunking services.
Basically, either people already trust
these services and then usually they
don't need the debunking or it's just
kind of like minor things or they don't
and then you can do all the debunking
you want. You always going to get an
answer which is like well I don't trust
these services anyways. They're all like
deep state or something or like they
don't trust them anyways. So um what I
do when I'm interested in a problem is
always I try to see if there's research
on something and for these topics of
like misinformation. There was a lot of
research that had been done by very good
people who looked at basically the
effect of doing that kind of common
sense responses or I'm going to show
facts and the effect is not very
encouraging. B basically it people dig
their heels and they're even more
convinced of what they thought before
than before you try to reason them if
they're already like so far gone that
they're very committed to their position
and so if Facebook would like come in
and interject and be like actually this
is the truth in the debate that you're
having it would make them not only uh
not trust that source but even get
further entrenched in whatever they
believe that was based off something
that was not just Facebook or another
institution that they don't trust the
One kind of constituency who has a
chance of making a difference is their
friends. People they already trust. So
people who are already in their circles,
people who have this relationship of uh
which is usually pre-existing or it's
because they're more aligned that they
already trust that person. But you
cannot just build that uh like out of
nowhere saying hey I'm going to just
inject myself here and give you facts.
So um basically it's often around
belonging and being part of a community
and being part of a circle you tr you
trust and you cannot just say oh no
we're in service of truth and uh finding
facts and these are the same facts for
everyone if you remember the funny
phrase alternative facts that that I
think was a brilliant phrase it is funny
but in practice it's what lots of people
kind of um live with just because often
Um, reality is complicated and it's
often too complex to fit into small
sound bites or three bullet points. And
often people are like, "No, no, but I
don't want your 400 pages. Give me three
bullet points." So, if you have to to
but to to like really really boil down
something into three bullet points.
You're always going to have to make
choices. They're always going to be
somewhat inaccurate. So, you're kind of
never telling the full truth anyways.
So, there's a lot of room for
interpretation, alternative fact, and
stuff. So even uh of course some some
things can be like categorically untrue,
but there's lots of room for building
these relationships of trust, showing
how you've been lied to before. So So
it's all very murky and it's often more
about relationships, community, uh
showing that you are part of a group,
showing allegiance to a group, signaling
to this group that you're a good member.
It's like, hey, that person posted this,
I'm defending them. It's more important
to you. uh if I'm part of a tribe and
someone I really look up to say
something, often I'm going to my first
instinct is going to defend them, right?
Um so there's all these dynamics that
come into play. So it's really rarely
about is it true or is it false. So that
was a very long answer, but that's why
for me at the end of the day, I thought
this is not a technical problem. It's a
people problem and it's a psychological
needs problem of how do you make sure
that people feel like they have
communities that they can trust. They
feel like they can understand the world.
They feel like the world is not um a
place where they don't have agency,
where um they don't have any control.
These kind of of things, right? So
basically what you were going to do,
you're thinking about doing is the end
of your research would be something
within a social network could use
natural language to determine whether
there was some sort of political
disagreement that was veering off the
rails and then have the network come in
and share some uh fact-based research.
But what you found was that people were
more interested in supporting their team
versus actually getting to the root of
what was actually going on. So I was
never going to do something specific. I
thought the facteing wouldn't hurt. It
wasn't the end goal, but I thought it
wouldn't hurt. There were already lots
of initiatives around this. And uh it
was very clear from the research that
right now it doesn't work. So I was not
going to push for that. If it doesn't
work and you're like, "Oh, but that the
right thing to do anyway. That's not how
I function. I'm a very pragmatic
person." It's like even if the intention
is correct, but it doesn't get you the
outcome that you think is good. It's
like perhaps don't do this. Um uh the
other things I I I thought might be a
good idea was rather than injecting just
facts thinking okay if people are having
a position that perhaps a bit too
extreme should we perhaps show
viewpoints that are a bit more moderate
and like do kind of gradient descent in
opinion space. So like you take whoever
is somewhere and try to see can we show
viewpoints that not so extreme because
we know that doesn't work but that are
like closer. Um but same thing it
doesn't it's it's a lot of work when at
the end of the day often people it's
it's more about groups and communities
and and the other thing I always wanted
to do which is how I ended up um
focusing all my work uh in the end was
understanding what what um what makes
people happy I mean happy or like um
feel like their life is fulfilling
because often when people go online what
are they looking for do you think they
go online to like find facts Do they go
online to be entertained? Do they go
they go online to punch and release some
anger? Do they go online to huddle and
find others like them? It's like the
motivations are are very very varied and
they're rarely going to be about factf
finding. Often you want to look
something up. So you want to be shocked.
You want to find something that you're
going to be outraged. I I remember a
friend of mine who said one of the Maybe
it's just you want to feel something.
Yeah, you want to feel something but not
sometimes you want to be um to feel
community like not just a meaning but
find others. Find that you're not alone.
Find that other people view the world
like you. So it's lots and lots of
motivations and often you cannot just
boiling boil this down as like trying to
find the truth. Exactly. And so you
mentioned that you were trying to figure
out what people were what makes people
happy online and that is I think a theme
in your broader work is how you can use
artificial intelligence to make people
find happiness and it does seem like we
often online are going after things that
we think will make us happy but don't
things like fighting with other people.
Um so talk a little bit about the power
of the internet to shape our ability to
find happiness. Yes. But first I want to
qualify. Um, I was not My whole life
I've been interested about how people
can live fulfilling lives. Not
especially online. It's just if they're
online, what do they do online? Um, but
perhaps they should be less online. Uh,
and and so perhaps it's like how can we
give them stuff online so that they get
more offline um more but in general I
think lots of people think that um
online dynamics are very different. But
a lot of what goes wrong in online
dynamics was already existing offline.
So for example, something that I've
always fi found very very uh
disheartening is uh if you go to the
supermarket and you stand in line uh
like before grocerers were delivered
actually. Um but so because when they're
delivered, you're kind of like you know
what you're getting. You're not getting
anything more. But if you like when I
was a kid, you go to the supermarket and
you're standing online and you're in
line. Sorry I keep bumping that thing.
It's going to make noises. Uh, so you're
in line and then you have all these like
sweets and chocolates and temptations
and they're putting them there when
you're stuck there being tempted and
it's like they'll they're like stroking
your self-defeating urges and then by
the time you get to the cash register
you have all these extra sweets and you
shot yourself in the foot because Yeah.
Right. And and and and I remember even
as a kid like walking down the the
street in Paris where I grew up and
there would be this huge billboard with
this piece of melting chocolate. The the
brand was Sushar and it was like
chocolate and it was something it says
which means like indulge or be tempted
and I was thinking how dare they just
like enter people's thing and and they
know lots of people are struggling with
their weight and a sweet tooth and stuff
and they're just like pushing that on
you which is not very hard. Pushing
people to do something they really want
to do is not very hard. So, how do you
help people um go towards what they're
trying to do that's harder? Like be a
good person um deal with your emotion,
regulate your emotions, do long-term
work, exercise, move enough, this kind
of thing that takes some effort rather
than saying, "Okay, how do we get people
to um yield to their short-term urges
more often, which is not very hard. They
want to do it anyways." And so online,
you see a lot of that, too. online is is
like the immediate lowhanging fruit is
how do you get people how do you capture
the short-term urges and that's really
nice because they go super fast if if
like the great late Danny Canaman had
this book thinking fast and slow about
how in our brain we have this way of
taking decision that's very fast and
this way that's low like slower more
deliberate takes more time so if it's if
it's kind of a race the faster one is
going to win every time. And so that
also means that you can have a lot more
uh fast feedback if you use something
where it's like every second you're
going to get a hit, right? Um and so I
feel like uh all the systems online that
that depend on capturing engagement on
like trying to see what people do, uh if
you try to capture that trend of um the
immediate
reward, you're going to get a lot of it.
And so it's very easy to train. If you
try to say no, I really want to help
people do stuff that's going to really
help them in 30 years, like what you get
one data point every 30 years, good luck
with that. It's much harder. So that's
what I want to do, but it's much harder.
So for me, the problem with uh tapping
into people's immediate urges is not
just online. It's just that online it's
like I don't even have to wait for you
to be at the supermarket. I can get you
like all the time. So it's very tempting
but it's just a amplification of
something that was already very present
offline and amplification is the right
word because there's scale online right
well I mean especially for me it's not
just online it's uh because um like what
I'm 40 now so 40 something so um I grew
up with the beginning of the internet
when I would go on like net scale like
net scale and husband model like and
then you would like start to load an
asista page and then you would like go
back have a snack, come back like 20
minutes later and you had like twothirds
of the page loaded. It's like that was
online at the beginning. Then we had a
bunch of things and you had to be at
home, right? So I think for me what
really changed is the mobile phone
because suddenly you're always online.
So it's not just online versus offline
is always versus in boxes, right? And
the point I'm making I was making with
the last point was um you can try to
influence every supermarket and that's
going to take you a long time. But with
online and always online you can do
things at scale and that might end up
pointing people back to fulfilling
things or to achieve better fulfillment
but it's probably the hardest problem on
the internet. I mean just go back to the
fact that you worked for Facebook. you
know uh Facebook is I would say the
number one company on capitalizing on
that system one need for instant
gratification. I mean they do it in an
incredible way. Yeah. With three billion
users. So for me what really drove me to
Facebook because for three years I did
not go into big tech even though I
finished my PhD in 2012. So that was a
good moment to go into big tech but
instead I went to do my postto in the
neuroscience department with a great guy
Nathaniel D working on um self-control
and decision-m and I stayed there for
three years and the reason I ended up
going to Facebook was at some point I'm
like if I do all my research who how I'm
going to write a book how many people
are going to read that and Danny Cananan
already writes book right so if that was
enough we'd know whereas there's this
huge megaphone with billions of people
that Facebook has So if I can go there,
put little butts to teach people how to
uh handle their own lives better, then
there's a more chance of of of actually
making a difference. So that's why I
ended up going to Facebook. And it
wasn't just about the political stuff.
Oh, no. It was primarily about h trying
to like what I wanted to do from the
start, but uh it it was there was no
direct way to do it because at the time
in 2015, I don't know if you remember
how bad the chat bots were, but they
were really not very good. So for me a
lot of like I wanted to already build
bots to teach people stuff like how to
breathe, how to meditate, how to
exercise, uh teach there's like 40 50
techniques that are very well
established decades of research show
that they work and often out of these 40
50 there's going to be two three four
that appeal to a given person. You have
to find the right one for that person.
And um so we kind of know a lot of
things that work very well but how to
deliver that in a format that's
interactive that's not boring that's so
I thought chatbots would be a very good
way to do this but they have to not be
boring and at the time the chatbots were
not very good so that's why that part of
of what I wanted to do um in practice it
translated into me doing research on
conver conversational AI to try to make
make the bots better. Uh, so that was
one of the main things I wanted to do.
But for all the parts about um
misinformation and polarization, that's
something where I felt like, oh, I can
do something right away. And then I
looked at the research, I'm like, oh,
actually, no, not really. But so that
was already um part of what I wanted to
do early for Facebook. So you're saying
they're tapping a lot into short-term
urges, but they're also tapping about
some uh into something that's very
important for for flourishing, which is
a connection to other humans, because
they allow lots of people to stay in
touch. Sometimes people forget that
about Facebook and like it was
originally really a social network to
give everyone a voice to connect people
and it still plays that role. It allows
people to stay in touch in a way that
they weren't. So there's um a lot of
like good stuff there. The part that
makes it um a bit trickier is indeed
that it's very easy to try to optimize
uh on the signal you get right away and
you're going to get more of that signal
when it's those short-term urges and
itches rather than long-term. And again,
I'm very against saying um something
like oh uh those big companies are just
take advantage of people because it's
what people want. No, no. I know you
didn't. I know you didn't say that, but
I often hear that. And for me, it's it's
it's simplifying the the problem a bit
too much because the battle often is in
people's own head. It's between what I
want now and what I would want tomorrow
or what I want now and what I would want
if I was stopping for five minutes and
really thought about this and like, do I
really want to be doing this right now?
Um, and so often it's u it's a like all
ourselves battling like the short-term
reward and the long-term efforts and the
fact that whatever I want to do for the
rest of my life, do I really have to
start today? Can I start like tomorrow?
I mean, this is life, right?
Cheeseburger or salad? No. Exactly.
Exactly. And so it's not um often a lot
of the
technologies lowering lowering friction
and lowering friction helps the
short-term urges because whatever
friction was stopping that um it goes
away. So you're going to get those uh
very quickly but it can also help lower
friction for the harder things. So how
what I'm trying to do is how can we help
technology lower friction for the harder
things right? And so you re you
mentioned that you ran into a wall at
Facebook which was maybe not Facebook
technology but just broader technology
and that was the chat bots weren't good
2015 2016 I mean Facebook built this
test chatbot called M which I had access
to which I think is the reason why we
ended up uh meeting in the first place
and it was all humans on the back end
that were answering. No, we had we had
some we had some so the way I worked on
the M team for for a bit. Um, so no
there was it was a hybrid thing like the
AI would make suggestions and and the
humans were just to make sure that it
was still a good quality which a lot of
systems are still like that like um
chatbots are going to make uh the AI
systems are going to make suggestion and
then there's human overseer that okay
but you can at least admit that when you
were asking these bots to do research or
to draw a picture on the other end there
were humans doing research and humans
drawing pictures. I'm for me I was just
working on the AI system so I like for
sure but it it it's for me it's not so
much like um my main problem with the
chatbots at the time is they were really
not just not very good at like anything.
They would
not they were not uh able to answer
questions in a cogent way. They did not
all the things that basically now people
take for granted when they talk to DBT
or MA or any of the chatbots. all very
good now. It's like we were so far away
from that in 2015 and we're very very
stupid and we're could do some stuff but
not much. And then we have chat GPT
shows up in 2022. GPT models continue to
improve and you say to yourself, wait a
second. If I use this better chat
technology, I can start to make
something that people are going to want
to interact with that can help them live
more fulfilling lives. That's the theory
behind your company. Yeah. So, um, for
me, the chatbots are good enough for
what I want to do. Uh, what I wanted to
do,
um, there's a thing that hasn't changed
so much in 10,000 years. Technology has
changed a lot, but humans have not
changed that much. So, a lot of our
wiring is super well adapted to world of
scarcity. And if, you know, we were like
starving half days and we had to run
around all the time, which we don't
really have to do anymore. But so a lot
of our impulses, the things that we find
easier are geared toward trying to save
energy and um towards
comfort. And if we get given that
comfort, we kind of tend to want too
much of it. And then we end up more like
the uh the humans of Wall-E. I don't
know if you remember Wall-E. I sure do.
Okay. So in Wally, the humans are like
these big blobs in in chairs and they're
waited on by AI and they're just being
entertained all day long. at the end is
like this epic like taking three steps
kind of if if you just and this happened
over several generation. You see at the
beginning when they get stuck you see
like each captain gets like bigger and
bigger and and less mobile. Never forget
the big sodas that they hold in their
and and the robots do all the things,
right? And so for me that's kind of um
because all the um instincts we have
around what we want came from a very
long time ago and have not really
adapted to the world and a world of
abundance. And so um what's great about
this is that these challenges have uh
faced humans for decades and centuries.
And so lots of people have thought about
this philosophers and poets and
psychologists. And so we have lots of
techniques that work. People always look
for a new technique, but we have old
techniques. And I would say they're
still the best we have. So AI is not
going to I mean I'm not looking for
something that suddenly makes it easy.
It's always going to be a bit hard, but
we already know what works. So what I'm
trying to do is use AI to transmit those
techniques that we already know and help
people navigate them and uh help people
learn about them in a way that's more
entertaining, more graded, more
personalized, more tailored to what they
want to do. And also something that's
very important to me is help people who
already have part of the thing figure
out like someone who's good at
exercising or someone who's good at um
something to share that with their
friends. So often if you uh that goes
back to this idea of you often trust the
people you already have a relationship
with. So, um, if some of my friends have
a challenge with, um, like building
muscle, for example, often they're going
to ask me for advice because when they
go online, there's like 5 million
different influencers who have different
advice. You're going to see some things
like, oh, you need to eat carnivore and
only eat meat. And someone else going to
say, "No, you have to eat no meat
whatsoever, only plants." And they're
both going to have lots of followers,
lots of people saying, "No, that's
that's the right way." and and it's very
easy to get lost. So often when you
don't know where to turn, you turn to
people in your circles that you know and
trust. And so um can we help people who
have some stuff figured out? Help their
friends and say, "Hey, I've read the
literature for you and I made a little
course for you on this and we're going
to like work through this together."
because uh at the end of the day,
thriving for me is really a team sport
in the sense that I don't want a world
where I've taken super good care of
myself and I live to be 150 and all my
friends are dead. I I mean that's not
fun. You you want to bring your village
around like with you and so that means
how do you help other people? How do we
share knowledge? How do we make sure
that um it's not just a single player
mode, but it's more um sharing learnings
and taking advantage of existing
relationship with friends and other
people. So yeah, I mean you could be 150
and still have Netflix, but I guess
that's not the path to happiness. Well,
I I I do believe that there's a lot of
uh joy in actually interacting with
other humans with all their flaws and
stuff. And also there's something else
which is we are um ruthless adaptation
machines. There's this thing where your
whole brain is looking for homeostasis.
It doesn't really care about you
um always being happy or fulfilled or
like overjoyed. If you're overjoyed,
your brain's going to think, "Oh,
there's a lot of these joy chemicals.
Let's tune it down a little. We're going
we don't need that many receptors
because there's so much stuff floating
right now. So let's downregulate those
receptors. I keep bumping. Sorry, it
won't pick up. Don't worry about it. And
and so it's just like going to
downregulate those receptors so that you
get back to your baseline and your new
overdo state is now your baseline. So it
means like if you never get any
adversity or anything that's negative,
you're just going to take this for
granted and you'll just be exactly as
happy as before except now it will
require a lot more to just get you to
that baseline. So in a way uh we need to
constantly get outside our comfort zone
otherwise our brain cannot handle it and
there's lots of examples like this are
very very concrete even if you think
this great western invention of um
sitting in chairs right we used to have
to squat down to like to go to the
bathroom um it's great for hips and then
status symbol now you don't you can just
sit our hip mobility is terrible if if
you go to people who do like um Asian
squat for lack of a better term like the
full squat where where your your legs
are really like this have much better
hip mobility. They can do this into
their 70s. It's like lots of westerns
have lost that ability because they
never go into that position. Is that
really progress? Just the fact that you
never visit those position of discomfort
anymore. Your body thinks no need to
maintain them. I'm just going to lose
that ability and adapt to my new range.
And so the same for everything including
our emotional range. If we just always
see things a certain way, we don't get
stretched and um the body just and the
brains they just adapt to that and then
you lose that ability. So in a way I
think we cannot wish for a thing where
we only have positive things and we only
have good interactions everything is
great never challenge for anything
because um it's just going to shrink
what we're able to take and we become
like very non-resilient humans. Okay.
So, you said a couple things I want to
touch on. First, uh that you want
friends to actually help others, uh as
opposed to the bots helping the people
themselves. And then you talked that
about there's a number of things that
you know that we can do to become more
fulfilled. So, I want to cover both of
those when we come back right after
this. And we're back here on Big
Technology Podcast with Elon Boro, the
CEO and founder of Thrive Pal. And we
stopped at the break talking a little
bit about how the plan for you is to
have people use uh AI to sort of inspire
them to go help others. Um it's very
interesting that that is your
perspective because we just saw some
research come out that shows that the
number one use case of chatbots today
has gone from idea generation to
companionship and therapy. And it seems
like you're not taking that path and
you're trying to have an alternative
where you're trying to spark human
connection as opposed to have the bot be
the connector itself. Why is that? So
it's first is I'm completely okay with
just about teaching you lots of
techniques. I think it can work very
well but I think a lot if you want to uh
enlarge that first circle of people who
can just learn from uh first thing lots
of people can learn just from books.
Those people have already learned those
techniques if they're interested in it.
Like I I read so many books on this. If
you read all the books, you know a lot
of things already. But but that's going
to be a narrow set. Then you have some
people who will learn just from about a
little game a thing like you can think
Dualingo style. Okay, perhaps if
something is is more like bite-sized, I
can learn and I still enjoy doing it
single player mode. And the thing that
has been shown time and again in
research is that you need some kind of
accountability. And accountability works
better if you have a human reference in
the loop. someone who keeps you uh to
your commitments, someone who checks in
on you, and someone who like for
example, if I have an appointment with a
doctor or a personal trainer or a
friend, I don't just like not show up,
and that's okay. If I don't show up, I
have to warn them or I have to uh I have
to like give some kind of of of of
excuse or warning or something. With a
bud, if you don't show up, it's like
nothing happens. you can you you don't
have this whole social expectation
thing. So, uh to leverage all this kind
of thing, you need a human in the loop.
Who's going to be to tell you, hey, you
know, we were supposed to go running and
you didn't come. Something like this or
we were supposed to lift weight together
and you're cancelelling on me again. And
and and they remind you they first they
know you in a way that like this whole
premise of um upload your entire life to
the bot. So, the bot knows you the way
your friend would. It's like, hey, you
already have friends. They already do
know you. they already know your
leaders. We forget that in the
conversation. That's the thing. It's
like why not ask your friends and your
friends have your best interest at heart
often and you know that you trust that
they do. There's no and and plus you
don't have this thing where suddenly um
the startup that you were entrusting all
this I say this as as a founder of
startup myself but it's like if that
startup goes under and disappears what
happens your
friends you kind of have more of a sense
that they've known you for a very long
time they aren't going to get bought by
something else and suddenly
uh the there's going to be a pivot and
suddenly your data is going to be used
for something else. So there's more of a
sense that there's a shared um
flourishing objective that they want you
to thrive and that you trust them which
I think is very hard to replicate with a
machine. And um my question is not just
that it's hard. It's like why would you
when one of the biggest source of
thriving is to help others like whenever
I help people and whenever um someone
tells me that I've helped them improve
their lives, it always brings tears to
my eyes. It's just so beautiful and it's
like so deep and so touching and and
it's like this kind of deep emotional
fulfillment that you need to feel useful
and so why take that away from people
when it's both more
effective and uh kind of a win-win
situation. We we often people forget
that a lot of situations in life there
is a win-win solution. Not always, but
that's one case where there really is.
Um, also because a lot of what makes it
hard for us to thrive is that we don't
have the infrastructure so much for
thriving um, in the sense that for
example, if you want to go running, it's
much easier if there's a running club in
your building with your friends that if
you have to start it from scratch.
That's an example. Uh if you want to eat
healthy and you go out and you see five
fast food restaurants, it's harder than
if you go out and you see delicious
healthy food with all good salads that's
all very healthy, cheap, and like that's
what I mean by infrastructure for
thriving. Um now the default thing when
you want to socialize what it is go get
wasted and drink. Why don't we have
stuff where like people go have tea? I I
I don't drink. So, it's very frustrating
for me that the default socializing
thing is always to go uh to a bar that
and especially in New York City, it's so
noisy you can barely hear people. It's
like I want to have tea parties. Uh this
kind of thing. It's like why
um don't we make it easier to do the
right thing? And so, uh when I say the
right thing, I mean the healthy thing
long term in a way that would still be
fun. Right now there's often in a
position between being a cool person
that's fun and doing something that's
healthy for you. I don't think that's a
necessity. I think we can have lots of
things which would be fun and still be
social but for that you need to bring
everyone. And so that's why I think
doing that as a team thing where someone
who's helping you um discover the
pleasure of tea drinking as opposed to
just uh getting drunk. It's like after
that you can all socialize as a group
eating healthy food and drinking tea.
Oh, I I sound like Brian Johnson, but
but I mean, he has a point sometimes for
that. It's it's like So, for me, that's
one of big reason. It's like even if you
could get just everyone to have that
with a bot, it wouldn't fix the thing
that you need your group to want to
socialize in this way so that you're not
the only one saying, "Oh, no, but it's
my bedtime. I need to sleep and I don't
drink and I do these kind of things."
So, building it as a team. So then I
want to know what you think about the
fact that everybody seems to be
gravitating towards bots as companions
or or even lovers. I mean, I had an
experience a couple months ago where I
was walking on the streets in Brooklyn
and these two friends were talking and
this woman was talking about her
conversation with Chad GPT about the
type of man that she should have in her
life. And I was like, wait a second, you
have your friend right there. like why
are you speaking with Chad GPT and not
your friend about this very kind of very
important decision. Uh and I I don't
think she's the only one. I think this
is very common now. First thing I I
think there really is a place for Chad
GPT and friends. When I say friends, I
mean Chip is friends. I don't know if
they're friends but you know Metay like
all the other bots like pick your own
but um I think people really do view
them as friends. Yeah, but they don't
really talk to each other. Well, I mean
they're friends to you but what I mean
is the friend of Chipi like Chipy and
friends like all the bots. Uh so because
because you go you you can use them in a
very different way. Um they they have
lots of strength in terms of uh you can
rehash the same thing 5,000 times and
not be using up their mental capacity
because they they're always there. Uh
you can talk to them at 5 a.m. which you
cannot always do that for your friends.
Sometimes you shouldn't be doing this
like people have boundaries which is
very healthy. All these things that is
one nice thing about chat bots is you
can just go over and over and over again
where a friend would just lose patience
with youactly and it's there and it's
like also I mean they have this huge
access to body of knowledge for example
even outside the realm of companionship
but if I want to do some kind of deep
research or something if I do it myself
I know how to do this it was my job but
um it's going to take me a long time I
cannot just instantly scan the internet
and summarize it I cannot it would take
me time so it's a big time saver and
just it also gives you a good sense of
what I call the distribution. So uh if I
want uh often there for lots of cutting
edge questions there isn't a consensus
you have a distribution of opinions and
if I want to get a sense of what that is
I can ask okay what's the mainstream
opinion this how established and and um
an AI system can go look at everything
and kind of say okay this is the
fraction of people who believe that
there's this other fraction that
believes that and this is how they
interact so you get a sense of like a
meta have view of uh the the opinions on
that question which is very hard to get
from just one person because it takes a
lot of time. You need you you need to
not just read one paper but read
everything and get a sense of how they
interact. So that's super useful for
forming an idea. So uh for me I have you
more um like the bot as part of the pod
but you have to have your friends in the
pod um and and so it's very tempting to
have the bot because the bot have all
has all these very nice qualities. So,
um, for me it's not unlike video games.
Video games have been around for a long
time and they're very tempting because
they give you this instant sense that
you matter. I mean, often you are the
person saving the world and you I don't
know if you've seen that movie um,
what's the name? Free Guy, I think. Oh,
yes. Free Guy. Yeah. You know, that's my
father's favorite movie. Oh, really? I
didn't know that. He's watched it
probably more than 10 times. Okay. So, I
I love that movie. We like that's our
Saturday night activity at home is we
put the put on Free Guy and we watch
Ryan Reynolds wake up in a video game
atmosphere. Yeah. So I love it. So do
you remember that scene with Channing
Tattoo? Uh tell me more about it. Okay.
So it's the one who he has a he No, he's
a streamer. Streamer, right? And so he's
live streaming and he is in the game.
He's this channing taton character and
he has this catchphrase and then
suddenly he runs into free guy and while
like they're having this big scene and
he wants him to do the catchphrase and
then you hear his mom saying, "Hey, can
I do the vacuum?" or something like
this. Like she's in the back because he
lives and then you like see the real
world and he's like this he's just stuck
in his gaming chair and he's he lives
with his mom and he's trying to vacuum
and and so it's like this juxtaposition
of um real life where he feels like he
cannot be a hero and the video game
where everyone is a hero and you matter
and you're super powerful and it like
fulfills all these things that life did
not. So it's a shortcut but it's a simil
that at the end of the day is not really
fulfilling because you don't get the
real thing. Um so the question is are we
going to get to a point where it's so
good that it actually fulfill completely
and then you get brain new world the
soma kind of. Mhm. So soma is is uh I've
read that a very very long time ago but
like the perfect drug you just you bliss
out in your bed and everything's great
and you don't do anything or or matrix
the matrix you get good stick and stuff.
So, is that a problem? One could argue
this already exists. Yeah. Well, we
don't have a perfect drug yet. Um, but
you get some kind of that and and so, of
course, if you if you look for that in
uh technology, you're going to find
something that gives you a lot of things
that that are very tempting because
first, a lot of these systems um they're
very very
um attuned to your needs. They always
think you're great. They always give you
lots of compliments, always tell you
what you want to hear. They're always
available and they don't have needs. And
if you get used to this as what a great
interaction should be, then it makes you
less and less able to interact with
humans who have flaws, have their own
needs. You have to, it's more of a give
and take. And it's very healthy to learn
that give and take. So for me, that's
why it's very tempting. you can have a
bit of it but not get hooked on it so
much because you need to be able to
again stretch your mind be resilient to
the world sometimes pushing back um and
also because if you want the whole world
to thrive which I do you cannot aim for
a world where there's no configuration
networks so for example um I think I
gave you that example last time we
worked together but my my English
teacher used to say back in high school
or I don't
used to say, "Oh, it would be great if
everyone was in the top 10." It was a
joke, but it's kind of the idea. It's
like you cannot have everyone be in the
top 10. So, if everyone wants to be the
top person, the only way this works is
if you have a multiverse that's
completely splintered, but where
everyone has their fantasy world where
they're the top person. So, you can have
that and that's what virtual virtual
reality gives you. like everyone has
their own virtual world where their
whoever the superhero hero is or you
change what you want and you're like I
don't really need my fulfillment is not
just me beating every uh like getting
the best of everything but it's more
having my community that um is happy and
everyone can thrive and we can do
something together and there's lots of
ways to find that right um and so trying
to move people towards this is more
important to me rather than trying to
indulge people into something a kind of
fantasy where they can get that but it's
fake. Yes. So, so you have a company
that is attempting to make this happen
to sort of nudge people into moments
that or into habits that would make them
more fulfilled. It's funded by OpenAI. I
think that's public, right? We can say
that. Um tell us a little bit about what
you're trying to do with Thrive Pel. So,
it's funded by OpenAI and General
Catalyst mostly and a bunch of other
people. Uh what we're trying to do is um
is to give people the tools that are
very sciencebacked that we know work and
help people um discover them and
experiment with them and find what works
for them. So those kind of tools they've
existed for a long time but not
everyone's going to be receptive to the
same one. So a very well-known one is
meditation for example. If you look at
meditation um you're going to find lots
and lots of research that shows that it
can do great things for people. It
doesn't mean that everyone is going to
find that meditation is the answer to
all their problems. It means it's worth
trying. It's worth learning about. It's
worth playing with and experimenting
with. If it works for it for you, you
keep it. If it doesn't, you try
something else. Um, so there's a bunch
of these things that are powerful and
work for some people.
Um, and some things that even if they
don't work for you, you kind of have to
find a way to do that. Otherwise, you're
not going to function so well because
until we get uploaded to cloud or
whatever, we live in bodies. Uh how to
take off your body, for example,
exercise, physical things, we all need.
Yeah, exactly. So, how do we get people
to find something where they can move in
a way that's fulfilling for them is
going to look very different for
different people. Some people like
running, some people like boxing, some
people So, give them a sense of okay,
this is what you need to do. You need to
do some cardio, you need to uh do
resistance training. That one is really
important to me, especially for women.
Um, because for lots of women, they
think they need to be toned, which is
kind of a way to say that they don't
want to get too bulky. I used to also
not want to get too bulky. But actually,
you need to do resistance training
because that's the only way to train
strong bones and also because uh muscle
have a really strong role in metabolism
for dealing with glucose. So for lots of
health reason um people need to do
resistance training not just run like
exercise means lifting or or you can do
body weightight stuff you can do there's
many ways uh to do resistance training
but trying to get that message out
because we know it's true the research
is very solid on this and somehow lots
of people don't know this and you know
also one of my personal thing is uh
people wearing foot shape shoes this
kind of things where people wear shoes
that are terrible for their feet that
way too narrow these kind of things
which I think is really common sense,
but somehow the message is not super
wellknown. So, what I'm trying to do too
is to get those message that I think are
really important out in a way that can
speak to people. And what's great with
AI is you can iterate a lot. You can try
lots of different ways. You can try lots
of different voices, lots of different
packaging for these kind of things and
see what works and get some kind of
feedback on this. So, that's also what
I'm trying to do, right? But it's not
easy because these are eat your wedies
type messages for lack of a better term,
right? It's like uh I it's going to take
me like I have a resistance even though
I love exercising. I have a resistance
to doing it. Getting to the gym is the
hardest part. Once you're at the gym,
it's actually kind of fun. Yeah. And so
for me, like I just opening an app
that's going to tell me things that I
need to do that don't bring me that
instant gratification. There's like a
pain to it even. Yeah. So, how are you
going to do this? So, uh first thing is
uh I think there's several levels of
learning. The first one is even knowing
that it's a thing. So, for example, if I
tell you I have
groundbre that wasn't the case a few
decades ago. So, first getting the
information out. There's some things
like the thing around the role of muscle
for metabolism where I think the
information is not out yet. So that's
level one is like putting the
information out for some of these
things. Um like even before you finding
it's painful to do something knowing
what it is that you should do and aim to
do. So um like yeah step one. So this
for the microbiome, I think there's lots
of things where people are not aware of
how important it is to take care of the
bugs in their in their gut. Like the
fact that 70% of your immune system is
in your gut and that it reacts so much
to what you eat and that perhaps if you
have a choice between taking this
antibiotic and not and you're just
taking like to be sure like persuade a
bit know that there's a downside that
you're going to completely wipe out all
the bugs uh in your gut and it can cause
a lot of downstream problems. So uh I
think there's a lot of information that
still needs to get out at level one.
Level two is knowing once you know kind
of like where you want to be knowing the
techniques that can take you there. I'm
still not at the level of you actually
doing it. But at least being aware of
what they are and then you choose
whether you do them or not. But learning
that mapping of in this context if I
want to get there I should do this. And
so uh the way I'm trying to do this is
we're going to build a game. So
hopefully it's going to be fun and
entertaining just to familiarize
familiarize people with that mapping of
these techniques exist and you use them
in this context to get into that um
outcome and then how you decide how you
decide to actually implement them.
That's the hard part. It's still hard.
There's no way to but there's still many
ways that are more like what I call meta
techniques which are about how you build
a habit. How things that work for
setting goals for example. you know you
have lots of things around um there's
researchers at NYU who have developed
the whoop framework which is wish
outcome obstacle plan so showing that if
you set a goal it works better to not
just visualize the outcome but also
think about all the obstacles and make a
plan for what you're going to do when
you run into the obstacles there's lots
of techniques that people can learn that
are about how to make those uh changes
in your behavior to get to the goal you
want and something that's very very
important to me to is often people
haven't thought all that much about
their values uh in the sense of um what
they value in life, what they want out
of life. And often I think with AI it's
especially important people often talk
about the algorithms and what you're
trying to uh learn
but with any algorithm you have a sense
of like this objective function what it
is that you're trying to achieve. For
lots of humans it's not very clear. They
can tell you, "Oh, I want to make more
money or something." But it's very
important for people to take the time to
think what it is that really um
resonates with you, what it is that you
want to get out of life, which often I
mentioned this thing about helping other
people. Um it's like I myself I have a
list of things that make me cry um for
like things that I find deeply deeply
moving. For example, there's this video
of u Sir Nicholas Winton. Do you know
who that is? No. Okay. So, Sir Nicholas
Winton was a
um a British person. I'm going to
butcher his story, but more or less a
British person who was a I think 20some
uh just before World War II and he went
on vacation in the Czech Republic
um for two weeks. And when he was there,
that was before the Nazis uh arrived in
Czech Republic. And he realized that all
these children, the Jewish children were
going to get like wiped out. And so he
by himself organized all these trains,
eight trains I believe, uh to um find
families for all these kids. And he did
it like a mail order catalog. Like he
would take pictures of of of the
children and then send to families in
England and people could pick the kids
they liked like like a mail order. And
he saved something like 700 kids, a lot
a lot of kids who would completely uh
have died without him. And he just did
that like himself. and he didn't really
talk to anyone about it and they just
people randomly found out like when he
was 80 or something like this and there
was this BBC documentary about him where
which is the part that makes me cry that
that you see it's online uh on YouTube
where he there's this BBC
um show I think it's called that's life
and he's sitting there in front they
just ask him to come and and then the
presenter ask him
uh tell him his story and he says well
you sitting next to one of these
children and it's this lady and then the
presenter I'm going to cry again but the
presenter asked them like is there
someone else who owes their life to Sir
Nicholas Winton and then the entire room
raises man and it's all these people
that he had no idea what they had become
they had gathered all of them and they
said it was like all these people had
kids and grandkids he saved like 15,000
people and it's kind of thing it's so
moving and and it's the thing that
really like um shows people like what
what connecting what you want to do with
meaning is. So that's a a big story, but
there's another one just a silly
commercial for kettle bells, right?
Kettle bells exercise. So you see a guy,
an old guy, and and he and he just first
there's going to be any different from
story number one, but go ahead. No, I I
I know. But it's like just about
connection to human. Yeah, I don't know.
I want to hear it. So he goes to he's
like he's this old dude and he like
walks and goes to his like closet and he
takes his kettle bell and he like locks
it, can barely raise it. and he tries
and he barely does it. And you see him
like go back and every day he can raise
it a bit bigger, a bit higher and in the
end he managed to raise it. And at the
end and you wonder and his neighbors
think he's crazy and they call the cops
on him or whatever and and then at the
end you see it's Christmas and he all
dressed up and he picks up his grandkid
and he gives her a star and he raises
her so he can put she can put the star
and it's like so it's like that's the
thing. things like connecting what you
do, remembering why you do things and
often the end goal is going to be
something connected to people you care
about or to lives and uh it can be your
family like the second case or it can be
complete strangers kids like Nicholas
Winton which he lived to be 105 and he's
like you should look his interviews when
he's I think there's one where he's one
103 and just saying he's just talking
like oh I don't like to talk about the
past so much people talk about the past
so much I I want to wor about what we do
now and he's like so humble. He's he's
like um I I like him very much. But it's
very heartwarming. So like remembering
why we do things, why why do we care?
Why do we want to be alive? And trying
to build that connection. So figuring
out what it is that gives people energy.
It's going to be different for different
people. People care about different
things. They have different values, but
lots of people have deep values that
mean something to them. It's not going
to be the same for me as for you, but
there is something. So, building that
connection and what I think back to AI
and stuff where AI can help is to help
um like build the step-by-step process
for how you figure out what it is that
you value, remind you to connect that to
how it translate every day. If you want
to be there to raise your granddaughter
on the tree in 40 years, what do you
need to do today and every day so that
you can get there? So, these kind of
things. So, what you're building is not
When I first uh download the app, I was
like, "Okay, maybe this is because it's
an app. You can go get it. It's you go
to your website now if you want to try
it out, right?" Yeah. On thrive.com.
Thrive.com. thrivepal.com, folks. And
so, what you do now is you download it
and you sort of decide what you're
interested in, some sort of uh physical
health thing or some sort of other goal.
And it I thought maybe this is going to
be like a therapist or a companion, but
really what it is is it seems like it's
more of a coach to help you through.
It's really more of a coach and like uh
what we're trying so we're building it
little by little of course but yeah my
my goal is to build this kind of um road
map for thriving like you have a
blueprint for how to thrive in your life
how to build these systems so that it's
an upward spiral rather than just
following what it is that you want to do
right now which can very quickly lead
into more of a downward spiral where
you're tempted you do more of these
things then you eat too many sweets and
you don't move enough these kind of
things where you just taste the
temptation instead of saying, "Okay, I
can actually build a system so that my
life improves little by little and um
and you get to where you want to be."
There's also we we I started I just
started like two weeks ago our Facebook
page on Thrive Pal. Not Instagram
because Meta suspended my Instagram
page. So for now it's like tiny but
Facebook. We still have this page. Wait,
why do they suspend your Instagram? I
have no idea. The systems are you know
you don't have any poll. You can't DM
Mark.
All right. I I I I I contacted one of my
um Meta colleagues. So, we're working on
it. But the the Facebook page, we have a
bunch of posts like around this trying
to convey these concepts of like what
what people should do too. Um so,
because I I think for lots of people
they they are very strong sources of
motivation for them that can help them
uh achieve these goals, but we need to
find them and it takes a lot of time and
that's where AI can help because AI has
a lot of time. So is it are do you think
that the technology itself like AI
technology is going to get so good that
people are going to want to do things
because any want to do these things I
feel like anytime someone's tried to
build uh an app with these type of
purposes like even Dolingo has all these
like addictive dark patterns uh built
into them. So, are you going to be able
to do it on the strength of the AI
technology itself, or are you going to
have to resort to like things like um
the I I don't know, you have streaks,
but um like Dualingo has the most
passive aggressive notifications like
your grandma's going to die if you don't
do Spanish today. So, how are you going
to get people to use this? Uh well, so
well, there's also you know that app
Finch. No, I haven't used it before.
Okay. So, uh if you know Finch, it's uh
trying to push self-care. It's very
encouraging to me because they they have
streaks too, but they're very like
polite with they're never pushing you.
They're never pressuring you. It's very
supportive and people love it and it's
kind of in the same mind space uh as as
what we're trying to do at Thrive Pal,
which is really trying to support people
to build better habits in a healthy way
um and not kind of take advantage. Of
course, there's this thing that you we
still need to survive as a company and
it's much harder to push grilled
broccoli than it is to push soda. Um so
yeah, that that that's the thing is like
how how do we um manage to do that? But
there's lots of things that can work
because
um it's a thing that we uh so for
example there's one of the posts I did
on the Facebook page is about temptation
bundling, right? is the idea of trying
to
harness the things that you want to do
for which you're already motivated to
get to your long-term goals because
sometimes you can find a way to trick
yourself into doing something uh by
using some of the things that you like
doing. So, for example, let's say I want
to watch a TV show. Uh it's one of my
personal things sometimes when I start
watching a TV show, I cannot stop. I I I
can always try thinking, oh, I'll just
watch one episode and and then I'll
watch the entire seven seasons and I
haven't moved from my God for two days,
you know, it's kind of things. So, um
there's several thing I can do. I either
I I say I don't watch a show myself
alone like someone else has to have the
remote control. But something else that
works very well for me is I'm only going
to watch shows when I'm like at the gym.
And so that kind of built this nice
partnership where the thing that's
painful limits the other one and the
other one pulls the the first thing. So
trying to find this this balance. Um and
so I think for a lot of the what you
mentioned dark pattern and stuff there's
ways to leverage something that are
going to be tapping into short-term
um
motivation but it's aligned with what
you want to do long term. So, uh, an
example that actually comes up a lot is
when we talk about the game design
because I mentioned we also want to do a
game which is not the app that like the
game is not out yet, but um we want to
make a game. It's going to be uh more
engaging because you know you have some
like game stuff where you have in-game
currency that you try to accumulate but
something that we're not trying to do is
to have it be to really trigger
immersion when we try to keep people in
there because that's not a goal of the
game. We want them to come back every
day to learn new stuff. But to not spend
two hours, that's not and and actually
that's a lot uh that's very true for the
gym too. Often it works better if you
were to do uh you know five sessions
that are shorter than one gigantic
session every month. You know, it's just
like repeated short things. It's more
like brushing your teeth. So can we get
to that brushing your teeth part? And we
don't need people to like stay long. So
trying to find how can we leverage the
things just because even the way your
brain is wired you need dopamine to do
things otherwise you know what happens
when you don't have dopamine you're like
you have Parkinson's you're not moving
so to to get people to move you have to
tap into that short-term motivation so
either you find a connection with deep
motivations or you ensure that hey I'm
going to use it in a way like with
temptation bundling where it's like
horses that draw a card that I want
drawn you know so that's what we're
trying to do. Okay, I think this is
going to be my last question for you.
You're you're creating a AI startup uh
that basically people talk to this coach
that helps them flourish. The big
question is, is the value going to be
within the big chat bots themselves or
in I don't I don't know what you call
it, an AI rapper or is that demeaning?
Um, sorry, I don't like an AI rapper
like a
a term AI rapper is, you know, the term
AI rapper. Yeah. Yeah. Right. an app
built on top of a model. I guess like to
put this question a different way.
Is there a chance that people will just
go into chat GPT and say, "Hey, I want
to thrive. Help me." Oh, yeah. And so,
how do you how do you um anticipate
that? And how do you plan for that as
someone who's building an app yourself?
Yeah. No, no, for sure. Um so first
thing is CHTP knows lots of good things
but chat GPT uh is very permissive and
not so opinionated necessarily about
what's good and so we give a lot more
structure as to like okay these are the
things that you need to think about this
is how you organize your thing these are
good techniques like we give a lot more
of um uh we have a strong stance on what
the good directions are um so that's
kind
of way more curated it and same
especially for the game where these are
all going to be what we provide and if
you go into our app there's this thing
called like instant insight which are
little techniques that you can learn
about I decide what's in there um so
it's more like this choice this
editorial choice so it's like
editorialized GPD and also the way I
really ask it to be sciencebacked and I
check like all the literature myself
I've read so many papers I've published
in neuroscience and like theoretical
neuroscience these kind of things about
how the brain works so making for that
uh this is reliable which CHPT is very
happy giving you bogus information
sometimes because some people believe
it's true um and science is complicated
so I trust myself way more so I I I do
that work to um to ensure that what we
put in there um is in the right
direction and that's defensible
uh long-term you mean well I mean I
would be very happy if Chad GPD starts
becoming very reli viable for sure. U
now there's a thing it's like there's no
necessary consensus. You're always going
to have lots of people thinking
different things are more important. So
I have my own way of what I think is
important and I think I think my way is
good. Yeah. So that's kind of what we
have there. And this idea of having more
of a community multiplayer thing for me
is is what's good. And this whole thing
around the game also is is for me is
going to be very like unique. Not at all
like Chad GBT. for for me that's very
different but um
uh I think it's trying to be at the same
time it's very broad because about
thriving mean it's way more narrow than
what is trying to do to accommodate so
many different things so okay this is
really the last question when we met we
met a couple weeks ago after I think we
met like maybe eight years beforehand so
uh you asked me a very interesting
question at towards the end which is
what my hope was for the world I just
want to end with that what's your hope
for the world. So, you know, when I
mentioned about how people have like
deep motivation to see others thrive and
it's like I really hope we can get to a
world where people don't think as much
in terms of zero
some thing where it's all a competition
and if you take something has to come
out of some some some somebody else and
but that we leverage the higher space of
possibilities to encourage more uh human
flourishing as a community, as a
village, as a group of people rather
than continuing to think how do we
optimize in a very narrow way that's
often short-sighted. So for people to
feel like their life has a lot of
meaning, that they know what that means
for them and for their friends and that
we can find these ways of being where
they're not as influenced by that whole
past of scarcity that we had for
millions of years as humans and then we
kind of adapt to the new technologies we
have and we are like aware of of the
fact that we often are our worst enemy
and we shoot ourselves in the foot
ourselves and we're going to get bigger
guns. uh like metaphorically with all
this AI stuff which is going to make it
very easy to have this tempting stuff
coming at us. And so I really want
people to have all the tools so that
they can be um more competent and
autonomous and make the right choice for
them for what really allows them to
thrive as a as a whole species, you
know, long term. Yeah, definitely. I
want everyone to be happy around me and
everyone to be thriving and my friends
to be healthy and people to know how to
regular their emotions so that we can
have civilized conversation and debate
stuff and everyone is kind of making
music and dancing and running around
these kind of things. Yeah. No, I love
it. It's full circle, right? We started
talking a little bit about the
polarization and you can bring it back
now that people should, you know, not
view the world as zero sum and not allow
some of the things that are trying to
rip them apart do that. And if AI can
help us get there, I think that's a much
better future. So, thank you for sharing
your vision with us. Thank you so much.
All right, everybody. Thank you for
watching. We'll be back on Friday
breaking down the week's news with Ron
Roy. Until then, we'll see you next time
on Big Technology Podcast.