Is Google Flipping Its AI narrative, Humane AI Pin Flops, AI Clones

Channel: Alex Kantrowitz

Published at: 2024-04-13

YouTube video id: hyI2IMDjqC8

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyI2IMDjqC8

is Google flipping its AI narrative and
how seriously is Microsoft hedging its
open AI bet the Humane AI pin flops and
our AI clones the next big thing all
that more coming up on an AI focused
edition of the big technology podcast
Friday show all after this welcome to
Big technology podcast a show for
cool-headed nuance conversation of the
tech R and Beyond we're doing this
Friday style we got Ronan Roy and I 10
one for the first time in a month an AI
heavy show coming to you from two
different living rooms in New York we're
thrilled to have you all here Ronan
welcome to the show this week I'm or
today I'm in New York but I am just back
from Las Vegas at Google Cloud next and
uh excited to talk about AI Google
Humane all these things we have so much
AI to talk about uh which is great right
off the back of the Jack Clark uh
anthropic co-founder interview so that's
coming up first of all last week we
talked right in the wake of uh
earthquake this week in the wake of the
eclipse um pretty cool thing I drove up
with my father to go see the eclipse
were both kind of astronomy uh nerds and
uh just to be there as the sun
disappeared behind the moon was was
pretty special so I you know I know we
have a a global audience and a lot of
people who listen are on the west coast
but and I'm sure you're all sick of
hearing it at this point but uh
definitely worth seeing once in your
life for sure well I'm even more sick of
hearing it Alex because I was flying to
Las Vegas for this conference and I I
had Wi-Fi on the flight and Delta Wi-Fi
actually worked pretty good so shout out
to Delton all I did was see non-stop
messages about how lifechanging this was
from every single person I knew and I
live in New York all the time and
everyone enjoyed it so so I'm glad it
was uh it was that good there was this
listen there was this Vanity Fair
reporter deia Kai who was actually in
jury duty uh during the eclipse and
tweeted about how annoyed she was that
she was serving on a murder trial while
the eclipse was taking place and then
she tweeted but I'm glad I got a chance
to look at the hot FBI agent Among Us
they threw her off the
case Jerry Duty pretty amazing that's
one of my favorite stories of the week
one more thing before we dive into the
heavy Tech stuff I tried sunno this uh
AI song generator
and it's incredible it is so so good it
be it blew my mind how good it actually
is I told you I would put and actually
there's sonato last week when we were
talking with Zeke about it suo but I've
tried now both they're both pretty
equivalent for me I'm gonna put it I'm
gonna put it out here chat PT then mid
journey and now sunos sonado and musical
creation these are the three most
magical moments with generative AI I've
experienced text then images and now
music it it reached that same level of
just wow I can't believe this is
happening and how very very good this is
I couldn't believe how good it was and I
actually asked it to write a little
jingle about our Friday shows uh with a
very generic prompt and it made this
great song called Tech talk Showdown let
me see if I
can Alex is surprising me with this on
the of
[Music]
the
best every week they bring the latest
news to you in the world of gadgets
there's nothing they
do a CL you can't be
[Music]
[Music]
this thing is amazing it's nuts no I
mean so good even the the ability of it
to get that kind of like momentum into
the chorus and the buildup in the chorus
and even when you specify that kind of
stuff uh it still blows my mind my my
one note that I've already learned after
playing with this stuff is I have to now
my name is spelled r n j an but I have
to spell it R o n j o n to get it to uh
oh yeah to get it to do it right yeah no
starting to I have to play with it a
couple times to get it to do your your
name right it's all about the prompting
it's all about the prompting but this
stuff I can I cannot believe how good it
is incredible you know one of the things
that's amazing to me is that I'm still
amazed by Tech breakthroughs in like a
world where like you'd think you would
just get numb to them but this stuff is
still just it it blows your mind how
good how good it is in so many different
disciplines you're right chat image
Generation Now song creation and we're
eventually going to see video creation G
be nuts we'll see it when it comes again
this it almost made me more and I'm sure
when we started talking about Google
Cloud next and other other events like
this or other news it makes me more wish
we don't get demos and we just get the
real thing and we get to play with it
because even Sora now we've talked about
it and it looks amazing and I think it
probably will be very good but but I
just want to start playing with this
stuff as soon as possible totally so I
definitely want to get into your
experience at Google Cloud next um but I
also want to frame it in a way that kind
of maybe you'll be able to give your
Reflections through a question right so
here's the question that I have do you
think Google is flipping its AI
narrative around and I wrote about it
this week in big technology podcast I'll
just say the night of the big uh Cloud
keynote on Tuesday I was at a dinner
with a bunch of reporters and three
public tech company CEOs including Aron
Levy from box and the CEOs of mongodb
and data dog and Google came up in like
the context of like well they didn't
lock anthropic down the same way that
Microsoft did and anthropic is working
with Amazon now and the overriding
feeling among the CEOs was we're going
to look back and be confused at how
Google has been so written off in this
narrative and they have the computing
power the personnel and the resour
ources to be able to build key
foundational model that's going to
effectively come into line or even
exceed what's out there currently and
that will help power you know their
business there now again like I think
even the conversations that we've had in
the in the past few weeks about this are
totally not invalid like all the
challenges still exist but I do sort of
think that it's starting to become
accepted now that this
is this is going to be an area where
Google is going to catch up in and it's
only a matter of time so with that being
said I'm curious to hear your
perspective on it and tell us a little
bit about the
event yeah so we have talked about this
a lot on the show and and I definitely
believe that generative AI that lives
where you already are always has an
inherent Advantage so Gemini existing in
docs and sheets and slides in the
workspace context is going to be an
advantage they did a lot they showed a
lot around Gemini in big query and other
areas of Google cloud and coding
assistance and data an analysis
assistance and I think that's going to
be an advantage so always the companies
that have you know delivered the tools
that you already work in will have a
head start in this but I think for me
more I went to the last Cloud next
Edition and it was only about 10 months
ago then they rushed this one up and or
they got back to the regular schedule
and now are doing it again the spring um
the last Edition felt like demos and
promises and this one felt like actual
tools and already I've been using Gemini
in workspace and I can talk about it and
it's pretty exciting I tested Gemini in
big query to try to have write SQL
queries for me and it actually works so
I think this it was really good to see
that it's for real it's actually
happening what they're delivering you
can actually use and is no longer a demo
if we even think about it nine months
ago it was duet Ai and Bard and now we
have one nice term that we can all talk
about and it's Gemini so I think Google
is getting their stuff together it's uh
it they they definitely showed that they
are they're delivering I do think I but
I did walk away thinking more the talk
around size of foundation models quality
of foundation models even in your jack
Clark episode it really still did feel
like there was this talk around arms
race and the H tens or hundreds of
millions of dollars in computes spend to
create these Foundation models I really
think is not as relevant as the
productization of these tools and I
think that's what was exciting for me is
to see the productization is moving
pretty quickly especially at that scale
yeah it is all about how you put it into
production right and I even wrote about
this today in big technology that that's
going to be the big challenge for Google
right is it can it will definitely reach
this parody of mod models and the
question is going to be whether it can
actually put that into play on product
so and by the way we should also note
that Google is at an all-time high as we
record in the stock market and Ben
Thompson who writes trary who we've
talked about he had called for Sundar
pai's job a couple weeks ago and now
he's praising sundar's uh basically
Google's Play at Cloud next talking
about how it's going to rely on its
infrastructure to push this AI so but
let me go back then to our discussions
around Gemini and the slow start do you
think this was an inflection point where
we now see that they're turning around
or and this is pretty interesting is it
just that they're better at executing
for Enterprise than they are for
Consumer it's be a very interesting
shift for Google but one of the stories
that I saw was that people have a lot
more control for instance with image
generator for Enterprise the Gemini
image generator and they've never had an
issue like they had before and uh this
this this might be the case I'm curious
to hear your perspective on on how this
all shakes out and where the company
stands on that front wait that that's a
really interesting point because again I
was at Cloud next and Google Cloud still
which includes Google workspace so all
the you know docs and sheets and slides
tools and everything else um is an is
essentially the Enterprise division of
Google CL of Google and to me they are
rolling out Gemini and generative AI in
a pretty strategic methodical way and an
effective way versus we saw the Gemini
consumer facing image roll out and all
the chaos that kind of uh you know went
along with it so so maybe they it is a
fact and and it would be good for them
both from a stock market perspective and
just I think overall is the direction of
the company because I've always believed
Enterprises where the real money is or
the only viable business models are
generative AI so that if if they are
actually shifting more towards an
Enterprise focused company which the
revenue of the Google Cloud Division I
mean it went from five billion dollar to
36 billion in just I think four or five
years would also show I think that could
be that could be the real Direction
Google is because we always thought of
them as a consumer company for years
while Microsoft was the Enterprise Giant
and now it looks like maybe they are
shifting to at least more of an
Enterprise company yeah I mean it
definitely is impressive that they've
been able last year was their first
profitable year on cloud and they've
definitely now they're now forced like
they're not an afterthought there was
people that were telling me they should
be selling off cloud and it was a
failure now it's profitable they had
record quarter in the fourth quarter
they beat expectations and we actually
spoke about this again at this dinner
that I was at on on Tuesday I asked this
question I was like Google cloud has
been known to not be really good at
sales and if this is going to be if AI
is going to be the value of AI is going
to be unlocked in Enterprise then why
would they be better off even if they
had a better model right than Amazon or
Microsoft because those companies are
used to so especially Microsoft are used
to selling this technology into
Enterprises is there something that's
shifting within Google that's like
making you think that they have a better
chance or of of being able to sell in
Cloud I mean or something that's
powering the fact that they've had this
Cloud turn around like what is happening
on that because this is on that front
this is the most important thing they're
going to face a margin decrease in
search no matter what like even if
Google search remains dominant they're
going to not make you know the margins
that they were making before so they
need to make it up in cloud so so tell
us a little bit about what's going on
with that division of the company okay
so as we have talked about sundar's
future many times in this podcast and as
you mentioned Ben Thompson and among
many others questioning it if they very
strategically and there's no reporting
around this and total speculation but I
mean if if they actually did forecast
the decline of search or the
unpredictable future of search which I
think we all agree none of us know what
search will look like a year or two from
now already you know for me I've moved
much more towards generative chatbots
for any kind of search type query so if
you really recognize if Sundar is
driving the idea that it's unpredict we
don't know what the search business
model is going to be so let's start
diversifying more towards Enterprise and
Cloud that's pretty amazing because it
looks like that's what they're doing so
so in terms of flipping the script and
the narrative if if if like you know six
to 12 months we find out from now we
find out that this was all a very clear
strategic push I think sudar will be uh
sitting okay for a while and pretty
confidently but how many Tech Giants can
eat off of the move to Cloud right
because Microsoft did it now that's
Microsoft's business Amazon did it now
that's Amazon's business is cloud a big
enough business to
sustain three Tech Giants no no but
Cloud so there there's you know the
actual cloud services and kind of like
you know data storage and processing and
just more General cloud service type
Revenue but to me it's the entry point
to every other Enterprise service again
even the you know C the more business
consumer facing segment of workspace or
Microsoft Office 365 you know that's
just one extension of cloud or the
Enterprise so to me it's less the name
cloud is almost a misnomer versus it's
more Google Enterprise so I think
there's any type of Enterprise service
can then go live in that Division and to
me there's no shortage in fact I mean
you could even imagine again total
speculation here but like I was just
seeing in entur numbers I think they
reported that they had 600 million in
services for generative AI so just
imagine like the amount of business
needs that are growing as companies try
to have some kind of AI transformation
and any kind of service you can provide
around guiding companies whether it's
actual products or services or
consulting or knowledge whatever it is
if you become that kind of guiding force
for every large Enterprise towards the
AI transformation it's it's a pretty
interesting propos
position so give your one to 10 rating
of where you thought Google was coming
into this week and where you think they
are now one being in real trouble and 10
being in amazing
shape I would put it going in around uh
four and a half to five and coming out
maybe a six to seven I really did it did
it flipped the script for me I I mean
one thing and just to kind of like bring
folks into Vegas it is still some what I
almost want to say disarming where
you're in like the keynote you're in
Allegiance Stadium you walk in I think
there's like maybe there's like 15
16,000 people in there it's so loud it
feels like like a Testo concert or
something like that just it's kind it's
almost comical how over-the-top the
production value is and they come like
Thomas Curry and the CEO of Google Cloud
walks out sundar's on the screen again
this is not Google Google this is Google
Cloud um and then you know like it's
still funny to me too they announced
their new arm-based processor chip and
two guys next to me actually high-fived
they were so excited that is weird and
yeah I know I know I mean and one guy
actually said this is fire I will never
forget that moment it was amazing um
people were very excited and and to me
again the most important transition
because I had a direct reference point
from nine months ago it was all demo
and now it's actual stuff again and I
said Gemini and workspace already this
is all I wanted and now I actually have
used it and it's happening now if you
I'm in the the beta testing group of
Gemini and workspace you have a right
panel you can click on it in a slide
deck say okay you know summarize this
deck for me even pull numbers out of
charts that are in the deck or even be
like you know based on this marketing
deck create me 10 taglines and it
marketing campaign taglines and it will
do it directly from unstructured data
that you have you can do the same in
docs like so so being able to connect
all these different tools they have and
pieces is going to be their advantage
even another thing they showed was
within you can be in Google Docs and
let's say all of your company's data
lives in Google cloud or big query you
can directly you know pull data from
your company's actual databases into
your presentations and docs that is
something that no other I mean other
than a Microsoft almost no other company
will be able to do yeah I mean there was
also some other cool stuff like you
could write you can kind of do like a
scratch Pad where you would like write
the type of email that you want to write
and it would just produce if you I guess
it's like a prompt thing but you would
like write an email like you would write
a text and it would turn that into a
formal email which I thought was was
interesting but yeah lots of interesting
things I would say I started the week
out kind of a little bit more optimistic
than you 5.5 it's like five to six on
Google and now I think I'm out of 67 it
was an impressive week without a doubt
that's all they can ask for they
seriously both of the big technology
folks they moved up the scale we Gemini
guys now I guess Gemini I'm still a Bard
boy at heart boy you know yeah you could
keep living that
dream I'm surprised they didn't have it
in the sphere by the way did you get a
chance to go to the sphere uh I saw it
from the outside I wanted to I was I
wish actually now that I went in they
have apparently this like Darren
aronowski film uh I did not go in but
Google actually for one of the day one
of the nights had the sphere and had
this whole Google Cloud visual on the
sphere and and I went with a group of
people and we like looked at it it's
it's pretty visually stunning I yeah I
want to go to did you go in I went to
you two there oh wait you went to you oh
man pretty cool it was pretty cool
watching it yeah I want to go back go to
a concert there definitely that's on the
agenda now when we have the big big
technology next we can get tickets for
the show you know we're going we should
we should host a Friday show at the
sphere I think I think that's the only
way to do it Jim if you're listening and
I know you are let's speak after this
whatever feater is I'm sure we can cover
it but but I will say midweek Las Vegas
was kind of depressing it was pretty
empty it was uh I this if anyone Google
listening my only feedback would be I
don't think Vegas is the place for cloud
next it was uh there was no one in the
casinos other than the 30,000 people
attending cloud and Cloud next and and I
don't think any of these people gamble
or play the tables or walk around the
casino so it you were there on your on
your DraftKings app being like man I'm
just GNA keep playing till they ban this
prop pets on college
players I uh it was it was actually
interesting in terms of the the MGM
sports book they when you walk in
there's like 10 people as you walk in
that are trying to get you to download
the app so even like rather than placing
a bet directly at the sports book you
traditionally would yeah they everywhere
in the entire physical sports book
there's someone with like a t-shirt and
a sign on that's trying to get you to
download the MGM Sports Sportsbook app
which I did and you get 25 free bucks or
whatever yeah it's how they get you Ron
Johan I know I know this is all again
Chris Christie thing
so thanks Chris Christie thanks Chris
Christie we gotta have our Chris
Christie shout out every show let's talk
about this very interesting news coming
out of Microsoft speaking of Google's CL
uh AI play Microsoft's AI play is
actually quite getting quite interesting
um so they obviously brought in Mustafa
soliman who was a deep mind Co founder
to run consumer AI there uh but it also
it really kind of caps off the series of
different moves that Google's made to
try to what I would say is hedge it's
bet on open AI I would say last year
this time they were all in on open AI
now if you look at where the dots are
going and try to connect them it looks
like the Hedge is coming and I'm curious
how big of a hedge so by the way this is
just from uh the information so they say
uh while Microsoft remains St gly
committed to its partnership with open
AI with which exclusively Powers
Microsoft's first-party AI apps such as
co-pilot it has also ramped up its own
small model development and it continues
to expand the catalog of models
available through its Azure Cloud
platform this week Microsoft made coh's
large language model available in Azure
and last month the company made
headlines with a splashy deal with
French AI company MRA okay so everywhere
you look Microsoft seems to I think and
I would argue smartly be hedging the
open AI bet and saying no matter what
happens to open AI we're going to be in
good shape and Sadia had talked about
how like during the Sam Alman crisis
that they were fine but I don't think
they were as fine as he wanted them to
be and I think he's trying to get them
there with these moves you add all this
to the fact that Suliman is in there and
we're going to go a little bit deeper
into what his remit is inside Microsoft
and you're left with like a very clear
picture I would say that they're they're
trying very hard to hedge that opening I
bet what would you say yeah I think it's
both hedging but it's also this is what
Enterprise generative AI will look like
going forward because another thing that
I mean kept coming up at the cloud next
but also is relevant for Microsoft is
these models can be very expensive and
costing is going to become a much much
bigger deal as companies actually
operationalize this so being able to and
actually mraw the French company they've
already made a big deal that supposedly
they've discovered or some new way of
processing data or whatever that makes
their models cheaper so they're already
using cost as a direct advantage or a d
competitive differentiation so I think
if you're Microsoft if you're Google you
have to offer tons in every single
possible model because for different use
cases as companies actually bring this
to scale the cost is going to become
such a big issues that they're going to
you know want to use different models
for different purposes even within open
AI you know or any other of these big
foundation model companies they have
plenty of different models that solve
different problems at different costs so
so I think there it's no question that
betting all their chips on one Company
open AI especially one that's had some
very interesting corporate governance
Affairs over the last uh six to 12 12
months I mean they have to do this right
and then you look at what Suliman is so
we're getting some more information
about what Suliman is Task with inside
Microsoft and uh we spoke about a little
bit when Jessica Lon was here when the
right when the deal first happened but
now the information is published in the
same story a little bit more uh specific
so this is from the story Microsoft
historically has struggled to turn its
own AI Research into commercial products
that has prompted Nela to make a bold
bet on open AI to supply
state-of-the-art technology for
Enterprise apps like office Simon's
arrival provides Microsoft with an
opportunity to go after another large
Market AI services for consumers a
moment when it faces intense pressure
from Google open Ai and other leading
Rivals to win over everyday users so
that's interesting that they would even
include openai as a rival there um and
and this is really it so you have
opening eye for Enterprise Microsoft and
inflection for consumer and they're
sitting and this is from the story uh
they're sitting among search advertising
news Edge and MSN teams there 60
inflection employees that have come
along including Suliman now of course it
was a failed company right for all
intents and purpose purposes it was
failed uh but again like if you're
thinking about like where open AI was
positioned when it comes to
Microsoft yeah of course they're doing
Enterprise and that left open for uh you
know room for Consumer but it really
just seems like
this might pigeon hole them it's a very
significant amount of responsibility
that they're giving to the inflection
team and even people within Microsoft
are looking at Suliman and being like
wait we thought we had competent leaders
why did you have to Aqua hire
effectively this guy in his company in
order to uh make this consumer push what
do you think about all that well that
that's a very I I hadn't thought about
before the idea that 60 to 70 inflection
employees are now going to across search
and advertising and the browser and MSN
which I always forget that there is a
whole team around that uh I mean that
MSN episode what the Yahoo episode no
MSN episodes sorry people uh sorry
listeners uh I think like if you think
about organizationally so yeah Microsoft
has gotten to such a place of like
competent leadership at least in terms
of perception that from the outside all
of us are like the way they've executed
Strate ically over the last decade has
just been incredible so but then if you
are bringing in a team and you have to
assume everyone from inflection who's
coming over is friendly with each other
trusts each other anytime you bring in a
team like this so to actually disperse
them across other teams feels like you
are trying to shake things up and
disrupt things a little bit and give
influence to sulan as you said so so I
think it's a that that actually makes it
feel like an even bigger bet then if
they just Aqua hired them kind of put
them in the corner somewhere and said do
some AI stuff this really feels like
they're actually trying to shake the
Trees of the organization yeah yeah
which is interesting it's like well and
I think people from Microsoft are
rightfully wondering why why do we need
this you know they're the most valuable
company in the world and everything
seemed to be pointing up but clearly
leadership there felt that it was a need
and
then you know there we even talked about
a few few months ago about how or a few
weeks ago about how open AI you know
would still first of all open AI we talk
a lot about the instability in open AI
because it's important it's still the
leading AI research house like don't get
me wrong on that front and I wouldn't
make the argument otherwise but it does
have this just ongoing risk and it
showed itself again today anyone who
said this stuff was over with Alman well
they just fired two researchers for
leaking information um and that uh
includes let's see it includes um
someone who was closely tied to
effective altruism
Leopold Ashen brener and um apparently
what happened is that there was a
disagreement within open aai about
whether the company was developing AI
safety a AI safely enough and these two
researchers leaked and they are very
close to effective altruism of course
right and um and now they're out and
they're also sorry they're also close to
ilas sudk that's the key point they are
ilas allies Ilia is the chief scientist
at open AI we haven't heard anything
from him pretty much since the fall so
he remains kind of hidden we don't
really know what he's going to do there
he's obviously a core part of open AI
although open AI will be fine I think
without him but it would be a blow if he
ended up leaving I I still predict that
he's going to leave but it's interesting
to see that his allies are getting
tossed over leaking what do you but we
haven't even we haven't even heard one
thing that's disappointing to me is this
whole drama apparently took place and
this is again a reminder that Leopold
Ashen brener and the other guy you know
Pavel isof who were fired you know
worked on AI safety the entire drama was
around the idea that Sam mman was
pushing too hard and apparently qar and
other discoveries presented such uh you
know Grievous risk to Humanity's future
that people felt they had to take action
I still want to know what's going on
there like what do they have that caused
people to react that strongly there's a
bit of reporting I think when it first
came out around qar but is open AI
sitting on the next I don't know what
kind of AI knowledge or terrifying
things I mean because I feel it's pretty
important I would like to know if
humanity is truly threatened and they
actually already cracked AGI and we
should all be terrified or if it was all
just a bit of drama I mean let's be
honest like humanity is not threatened
at this point we haven't cracked AGI
there's no way that that would have been
kept a secret but it does seem like this
was about the qar thing and I don't know
for certain I have no this is complete
speculation but in the middle of the
Altman firing weekend or right at the
end actually this qar news leaked and
Reuters had the story and I I bet that
this is still Fallout from that so but
the reasoning the idea that this stuff
is doing reasoning is very interesting I
mean this is something that open AI you
know no one really has talked about I
think mraw apparently might have or meta
might have come up with something um and
hopefully we'll get to that on a future
show but um but you're right we don't
know anything about it because despite
the open name and again we go back to
that they are not being very open about
it ex and in fact the people that want
more discussion have been fired but
maybe that's you know for in terms of
the public conversation maybe that'll
end up being a benefit because you know
as soon as that happens I'm sure
including myself a lot of reporters try
to connect with these people trying to
get them to say a little bit more about
what was concerning them inside the
company and they'll definitely speak
well that idea around like are we really
close to AGI one thing from your jack
Clark episode that really stuck out to
me is is the how I'm going to say
dualistic in nature this technology is
but but it is the idea that he made this
point and I think anyone who's ever like
researching llms or just thinking about
them especially from the lay person side
it's actually kind of an un amazing not
an amazing intellectual Discovery next
token prediction just trying to predict
the next letter or the next pixel and
that's why and and and even at Cloud
next when I was talking to more
traditional machine learning people you
do see this kind of like scoffing at llm
technology because it's actually not
that intellectually interesting it's
actually like a really and the fact that
it works and and when he was saying this
Bo it struck it stuck out to me both
because I see that attitude from
traditional machine learning people but
also because in a way that does make it
maybe a little bit scarier because it's
not supposed to work this well and
people are still kind of confused at how
well it works and how even though just
predicting the next to seems so basic
and not interesting it does it created
Created us this jingle to start the show
so right so I think it both made me like
it brought a more grounding to the
technology but it also made me more I
don't want to say scared but at least
curious about what makes it so good
right and look I think here's what I I
will say I think that the Skeptics here
and the critics here would have more
credibility if they would be open to
speaking with people outside of their
bubble and taking some tough questions
because they do do a tremendous amount
of speculation like these these thought
exercises like elzar owski for instance
right who's like this high priest of AI
Doom you know keeps talking about these
like really
fanciful you know I would say almost
delusional ideas of how the AI is going
to kill us meanwhile I can't get a
sentence right right now and although it
is getting better um and I've tried real
hard to get in touch with funders of
people behind this like for instance the
AI research pause that Jack and I spoke
about and to get in touch with alzar
owski himself to try to say Hey listen
like I've been skeptical of this stuff
obviously I've written about it I talked
about it on the show but I have an open
mind and I want like that's the job is
to speak with people who I'm kind of
skeptical of and say all right let's
let's talk about what's going on um and
because we have had some comments like
Hey try to take this seriously and all
right I'll take it seriously but I want
to hear from those people so again
strike out just to get on the phone
basically with someone who was funding I
think Dustin mosovich would try to get
him on the show he was funding a lot of
this AI fear stuff and he obviously
didn't come on and then um I reached out
to owski he gave me the email address to
his uh his media team uh this all
happened this week they turned down the
interview request uh okay no problem and
they said we'll talk on background with
you if you want so I said all right I'd
welcome a call right that's the job they
refuse to pick up the phone they won't
pick up the phone there I'm not kidding
it's insane they will say they said
we're I'm not a you know we we're not
talking if you have any questions send
us an email I mean like if your if your
whole thing is these intellectual
arguments like pick up the phone you
know you're even this is the thing even
critics today want a safe space and
critics that want a safe space I just
can't take them that seriously and you
know what credit to Sam Alman by the way
he was in Congress this week walks out
of some Senator's office CNBC camera and
a microphone in his face totally I don't
think he was waiting for it to come and
he walked down the hall with them and
took like three minutes of questions
about what he was up to what he's been
doing in the Middle East his desire for
regulation like to me if you I I think
that's admirable hiding behind you know
comm's people who won't pick up the
phone to me is is sort of I would say I
wouldn't call it definitive proof but
circumstantial proof that the ideas
Behind these these you know ultimate
Doom now I'm not talking about CH Clark
I'm talking about the Doomer movement uh
the ideas behind them are thin well also
if you genuinely believe you have some
hidden or insid or Insight that
potentially threatens the future of
humanity you would think you would want
to talk to everyone about it and not not
save your yeah pick up the phone if 's
interest in learning more and you are
the one who can potentially save
Humanity uh pick up the phone that's all
we ask it's totally unserious and I'm
sure the book deals will be nice for
them and whatever they'll keep getting
money from from billionaires who like
you know want to do something with their
time but ultimately like look it's not
like the leaders of the companies
whether it's You Know Jack Clark or you
know whoever it is are afraid to come on
the show they'll take the questions um
it's amazing to me how the critics have
become so difficult to get on the line
and you know let's talk about something
that's going to happen which is you know
potentially you know limiting the
momentum here uh and really gives you a
problem if you're saying that these llms
are you know the next step to blowing up
the world and that is that these
companies are seeming to run out of data
there was a great great New York Times
story this week about all the different
moves that every single AI research
house has made to um to try to get more
data because they're effectively running
out and there's an amazing uh quote from
some this guy Sai daml who was a lawyer
that represented or represents Ines and
Horowitz he goes the only practical way
for these tools to exist is if they can
be trained on massive amounts of data
without having to license that data that
data needed is so massive that even
Collective licensing really can't work
and you're starting to see that in
action whether that's open AI build bu
this tool called whisper which has been
used to transcribe YouTube videos and
feed that into the models and help train
them um meta for instance thought about
buying the Publishing House Simon and
Schuster to have long works like books
that they could use to train and even
Google has broughten the terms of IT
service um and this is uh this is from
the times one motivation for that change
was to allow Google to be able to tap
publicly available Google Docs
restaurant reviews on Google Maps and
other material for more of its AI
products so it is interesting hold the
horses on AI do we might not even have
enough data to train the next iteration
of these models well this is where it's
so tough me because on one side again
general purpose consumer facing AI has
to answer everything for everyone so it
does essentially need all the data and I
mean this is going to get more
interesting for especially us watching
from the sidelines you know for the New
York Times versus open AI or I mean
anyone else even again like does Google
is Google allowed to scrape YouTube
transcripts but not open AI what's
public what's not public is going to get
even more interesting but but I also
think in the end to me and from what
I've seen in practice for most use cases
small data sets that are trained on
small models will solve problems and I I
sound like a broken record on it but
Hing that home yeah and it's it's a lot
less interesting then my favorite part
of this story was Justine baitman oh
yeah if if people anyone who's of age
including myself who was she was
mallerie on Family Ties if I remember
correctly so that I'm gonna have to look
that one up to confirm it but has now
become a kind of anti- AI
copyright uh activist influencer type
and it's always weird to me how certain
people get involved in certain things
but she's coming out against it um and
yeah it's going to become more of a
topic and and it will need to be
resolved and there's going to need to be
some rules and legislation regulation
around it and I think it still presents
a major threat especially to open AI
where that's their entire business and
they probably are more aggressive than
anyone in getting here but I still think
in the medium term let's say this is not
going to be the problem that a lot of
people think it is and what do you think
about synthetic data basically data that
the AI creates that will be used to
train do you think there's potential
there yeah I've done it myself and know
like in if you're fine tuning a model
coming up with writing handwriting 10
outputs that are the ideal output and
then saying using this generate me
another 50 outputs and then tweaking
those a little bit and then doing
another 100 outputs and like using that
it works it works well
if it's done in a very you know
thoughtful careful way um so I think
it's going to become even more of a of a
thing you know like and it and it can
have very valuable uses so I think and
again and it will not violate any kind
of copyright or anything else so I think
that's going to be a really interesting
space and companies who kind of do that
well for other companies that could be
that's that's my next uh maybe the 2024
2025 hot company area the synthetic data
creators no that that will definitely I
think they'll be able to solve a problem
there and the Times article had Sam
Alman saying you know we'll figure it
out and kind of like frame that as like
we'll figure it out because we'll be
able to like steal the data and somehow
maybe that was part of it but also the
other side of it was we'll figure it out
technically and that's why I think the
synthetic data AI created data uh could
end up solving these problems one thing
that will uh assuredly not destroy the
world is this you AI pin uh which we've
talked about on the show in the past and
I almost skipped over this week but we
have to talk about so the human AI pin
is this wearable if you're if you pay
attention to Tech you've probably seen
the terrible reviews of it this week but
basically it's an AI pin you pin it on
your shirt you can take photos you can
talk to it you can ask it what you're
looking at uh you can ask it for
information etc etc and it was roundly
derided by reviewers here's the Verge
the Maine AI pin reviewed not even close
should you buy this thing that's easy
nope nuh-uh no way the AI pin is an
interesting idea that is so thoroughly
unfinished and so totally broken in so
many unacceptable ways that I can't
think of anyone to whom I'd recommend
spending the
$699 for the device and the $24 monthly
subscription
ouch yeah we we had talked about this
before and we were even a bit at least
hopeful for it but the reviews are are
not good and I do think it's again it's
a it's a to get this right you need to
have general purpose llms being able to
answer all types of queries and
questions like if you're not giving the
user any really clear guidance on what
does this do exactly and what should you
do with it and instead promise it does
everything it's a problem to start but
again in the reviews just
technologically the like wireless
connection or the data transfer and the
answer time
was very slow and laggy and didn't even
work a lot of the time so getting that
basic infrastructure I think probably
would have been a good idea I do think
this form factor of screenless AI
interaction is still very very
interesting and I I I would be hopeful
that we could have this kind of thing
I'm not counting it out I just think
Humane that launch video they had a
while ago with the two Founders that was
really depressing was not a good start
you have I think as one of their product
managers this one bothered me he kind of
came out and said you know like this
would we were really proud of what we
did tenenda he's a legendary design guy
who was crucial in Apple's design
process and wrote a long book about
creativity and I guess he's with Humane
so okay all right that's who I'm talking
about find the honor of Ken cienda all
right well I I'm GNA what pissed you off
about him though I'm gonna have to say
Ken end to piss me off in the sense that
he made this comment like everyone is
trying to make their hot take on social
media and again tried to turn this into
this like Tech versus hot take on social
media people trying for clicks whatever
else when you are a company that raised
$230 million and has the attention of
everyone in the world just deliver
something good like the the reviews were
from the negative ones from like Joanna
Stern at the Wall Street Journal who is
as far from a tech hater as it gets uh
The Verge you know had a very rough
review of it they have plenty of good
things to say about all s manner of
product so to me I this is something I
feel Elon Musk has done very negatively
for the overall tech industry where
people kind of default to oh the media's
just out to get us for clicks or hot
social media takes when just deliver a
product that's good I respect he said
making new things are is hard yes it is
but you were given $230 million so make
something good with it otherwise if it's
bad just accept that people are not a
fan of it yeah well I would say that Ken
is talking a little bit about how like
look 1.0 products often are rough right
first iPhone you know had a lot of
things that weren't weren't where they
needed to be uh but that being said you
do make a really good point this thing
was so below what it needed to be to
deliver that it was almost laughable
there was some hilarious points in these
reviews that I I watched from David
Pierce at The Verge and Joanna Stern at
the journal he I think David pointed it
at a company that was sort of had its
Banner at the New York Stock Exchange
that had a pink background and the pin
said that's lift when it was not lift
which is like come on it's on the stock
market and there was another moment
where and this was abs absolutely
amazing where the pin red back it's
prompt like the prompt that they had
built in on the back end like do not
tell the user this you know just give
him the quickest uh you know possible
answer it read that to the user I mean
that was astonishing so obviously this
isn't it and the fact that they've
raised all this money and made all this
big you know they did it to themselves
they they raised the money they hyped it
up they didn't deliver so I that's the
real issue this is the idea again that
1.0 products are not good no like the
first iPhone was had plenty of Magical
elements to it certain things yes you
could not copy paste text at the time
and there's limitations but overall it
wasn't there's there was plenty of
critics but overall it was a magical
device but I mean we started today's
episode talking about sunno AI a company
that I just looked up there's no Public
Funding rounds it's just a nice piece of
software that makes you music made us
that amazing jingle and it is magical
and amazing so the idea that like yes
1.0 their products I mean it's tough and
there's a lot of things that don't work
but youve raised the money as we said
the pressure is on and and I do think
there I now that we're talking I do
think there will be some kind of
nonscreen AI interactive device and
maybe it'll be a pin maybe it'll be a
bracelet or a ring or something glasses
who knows but I I want to I want to
happen I genuinely think a screenless
world could actually change the way we
interact with technology and be a very
positive thing but I don't think hume's
gonna do it and especially judging by
how they've reacted to uh to the rollout
multiple on multiple times from the
first launch video to the actual product
release yeah I mean I thought Ken was
was fine him saying we need patience but
I think that yeah I think you're right
that it needs to be better and honestly
the device looks doofy uh
you need a let's just say this the piece
of nuance here is if you're going to
take a swing at Hardware you need to
raise a lot of money but you know
there's a chance that you end up as a
magic leap as opposed to ending up as
something else so they I mean they've
been at it since I think 2017 so they
were just early but let's talk about
there's another Hardware very
interesting Hardware initiative that's
worth bringing up which is that Johnny
Ivy from Apple and Sam Alman they are
talking to VC companies about money and
this is again all the information I mean
kudos to them they're doing great work
um a mysterious company started by
former Apple designer gin Ivy and open
aai CEO Sam Alman to launch an
artificial intelligence powered personal
devic has started funding Tu with some
of the biggest names in venture capital
and they say Okay building the AI device
would add a dizzying array of product
projects Alman is pursuing Beyond open
AI they include a separate company that
would develop manufactur chips and he's
also said privately that open AI would
likely own a piece of the firm and be a
customer of it you know one of the
things so first of all I would say I
would bet on Altman and Ivy for sure as
the group that could do this way more
than you at least and I think you're
right there is definitely going to be a
need for this that being said like let's
let's think about it right because um
why I'm just thinking about this from
the Altman perspective why do this all
this outside of open AI is that the
structure like you would think that it
would actually be better for open a if
this was all built within open Ai and
not as a separate customer so what do
you think about the initiative first of
all and then second of all what about
that question of where this lives I'm
going to take the second question first
I think Sam Alman one thing I go back
and forth on is great entrepreneurs
understand momentum like when you have
the wind at your back you go do more and
more and more and that's the the great
ones are the ones who understand that
and you know like do things that were
completely unimaginable and unexpected
and really drive with what they
have with Sam timate is now going to
raise remember the trillion dollar raise
uh from a few months ago he's in
trillion come on seven trillion sorry
sorry or was that the valuation or was
that the raise that was the raise oh
that was the raise he was he's in the
Middle East talking about chips he's
with Johnny I'm talking about uh raising
with and they're talking with masayoshi
son of soft Bank of course of all people
about Hardware at a certain point maybe
you want to focus a little bit on which
direction you're going and all the
momentum and you are the world's
greatest AI celebrity and salesperson
right now but maybe I think slowing down
a little bit would make sense but in
terms of being outside of open AI he won
like last time around he started going
outside of open Ai and he's still CEO so
I think if there was any concern he's
already quashed it and he's going to do
whatever he wants right now and you can
argue whether that's a good or a bad
thing but in terms of their corporate
governance he's been given not just the
green light but you know it's like go
for it do whatever you think can raise
and make money and you know I think
that's good I think and bet again the
hardware question you're right it takes
a lot of money to to deliver Hardware
this is a pretty good dream team of the
type of people that could but I still
want to believe that you remember rabbit
the device that uh wowed everyone ship I
think or the demo is ready yeah I I I'm
hoping still the ne next wave of a this
kind of AI form factor Hardware is from
some new some new people new Minds new
uh new creative forces rather than the
ones we've all seen and I think it will
be because it's just so different so
like if you built you know like helped
design the iPhone and the iPad and these
screen based devices I I'm not sure if
you're going to be able to completely
rethink how people interact with
nonscreen devices so maybe we need new
new blood here new minds yeah well I
don't know the way that this stuff has
been going it always seems like the old
guard gets unlimited hacks at it because
of the resources
needed so I would bet on Altman but
we'll see I mean it's definitely you're
right this stuff can come out of nowhere
and it does take people envisioning new
things so it'll be fun to watch all
right speaking of stuff coming out of
nowhere people envisioning new things I
think we got to talk about AI clones
just to end this so um there's this uh
Sarah sorry this this San Francisco
based entrepreneur his name is darra LJ
I think that's his that's his full name
he just says dar on Twitter but he says
he's an entrepreneur and he says so I
met a girl in the marina last weekend
and gave her the number to my dating
clone it successfully closed the first
date for Saturday at 600 p.m. should I
tell her that she was talking with my
clone or see how long I can get away
with it so basically I looked at this
guy's company
and you can actually like go to hold on
I I should find out what this company is
called but you I think it's called the
cloning company if I had uh name that's
what's on his LinkedIn at least so
basically what it does is create AI
clones of of you and of other experts
and they basically just like can talk as
you so they can give business advice but
I guess they can also like do the dating
stuff and you look through the
conversation that he his clone is having
with this woman and it's actually like
fairly convincing so I think here's how
I feel about it ethically I think
ethically it's compromised but I think
the idea is
interesting well I would say interesting
maybe outside of dating situations and I
think the tech has gotten to the point
where it's good enough where we're going
to start to see more and more of these
AI clones out there what do you think oh
so first of all I just did check it the
company is called Deli the cloning
company but so Deli I and it does appear
that it exists and it's a realy company
good for Dara on his marketing here of
telling the story and leading all of us
thinking about cloning and leading us to
his company I think yeah it's a tough
one because from a customer service
perspective we are all going to be
talking to generative AI chatbots very
soon and I'm actually excited about that
and hopeful for it and I think it'll
make things life easier and faster where
there are all these set rules around
what you can and cannot do and then you
just get to where you need to go in the
customer service Journey it's weird
because that's actually the exact kind
of same corollary to this dating
conversation because both of you have
set expectations and rules the two of
them met out at a bar both of them have
already decided whether or not they want
to see the other person at that point
it's just a logistics game if you read
neither of them are saying anything
particularly interesting so it's all
about getting to the point of having a
plan so is this conversation that
ethically compromised I don't know maybe
for you both have your organizational
chatbot and you just connect the two of
them together and it makes your plan for
you it's kind of like calendly on
steroids but but of course when it gets
from here too the actual you know you've
already gone on a couple of dates and
you're talking about life and dreams and
passions and you're talking to the Clone
then it definitely starts to get kind of
terrifying yeah I mean this is my point
that this stuff is just going to start
showing up all over the place and uh and
you know one thing I'll say is that his
clone committed him to getting there
early this is great I'll get there early
and get a table or seats at the bar
let's plan on 6 PM I I I am waiting for
a viral Tik Tok of like two girls
talking and one then being like when
they find out that the she's been
talking to the Clone and out the guy and
then the guy goes by the video goes
viral because you know that that's going
to be a conversation just a couple years
from now I can't believe it I was
talking to his clone the entire time not
to mention this guy is like a startup
CEO and his AI just booked him 6 PM
dinner and he has to get there early so
you're telling me you're clocking out at
you know in the 5:00 hour start CE wow
darra fact that he would post that's not
how you do it that's not blue flame man
that is not blue flame that's no that
that's not 10x that's not
10x certainly not but Dar you got some
work to do but good for you on the
marketing side talk about AI for good
maybe that's the AI showing that you
should have work life balance and you
know maybe he'll have a family and not a
company could all end up R that's a good
signaling mechanism dar's got an
advanced Foundation model there I dig it
all right R great week we we got
definitely got back to all the AI topics
and we appreciate everybody hanging out
with us again and uh we'll do it again
next week how does that sound let's do
it again all right everybody thank you
so much we'll see you next time on big
technology podcast