Why The Costco Guys And Hawk Tuah Took Over The Internet

Channel: Alex Kantrowitz

Published at: 2025-01-09

YouTube video id: aK0Fa3WwHfw

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aK0Fa3WwHfw

let's talk about what the heck happened
to the internet which has gone through a
major cultural shift of late that
conversation with reporter Ryan brri and
our own Ron John Roy is coming up right
after this welcome to Big technology
podcast a show for cool-headed nuance
conversation of the tech world and
Beyond we have a great show for you
today because we're going to talk about
what's happening to the internet we've
talked about this a bit on the show in
the past but we're going to go into it
in much greater depth today looking at
the changes in algorithms the content
that rises to the top and what it's
doing to our brains and we have such a
great group to do it with us today
because joining us is Ryan brri he is a
reporter and writes a great newsletter
called garbage day you can find it at
garbage
day. he's also the host of the panic
World podcast Ryan great to see you
welcome to the show thanks for having me
excited to be here and of course we
couldn't have this conversation without
Ronan Roy of margins and our Friday show
Fame Ron John welcome to a Wednesday
show how you doing I am so excited to
learn what happened to the internet from
Ryan so I'm waiting I'm ready let's get
into it same here all right Ryan let's
talk a little bit about the Genesis of
this show so a few months back ronon and
I were looking at some of the great
phenomenons coming up on the Internet
there was the hawk Tu a meme where this
woman Haley Welch made I would say an
x-rated comment on an interview Tik Tock
and all of a sudden sudden became an
instant celebrity which is something
we'd never seen before and then you have
phenomenons like the Costco guys coming
up which are sort of like I guess we
would call them Mass Appeal internet
celebrities which to my mind hadn't
happened at the same frequency and the
power that they're hitting today and so
like our theory was basically that we've
moved away from the follow model on
social media and now we have the four
you everywhere right so the for you on
Tik Tok the for you on Twitter
everything is dominated by an algorithm
that chooses what might be interesting
to you and not what you follow and it's
Shifting the diet of content that we
consume and the stuff that rises to the
top online which is why you end up
having so much interest in people like
hakua and these Costco guys why don't
you take that thesis on to start and let
me know if you think that is accurate I
I think you are right that we have
definitely shifted to a world where 10
years ago everyone could look at the
internet and sort of see the same stuff
you know I I always call it like the
Gangam Style era the peak Ellen Show
moments and it did feel like there was
some sort of digital monoculture which
sometimes interacted with real world
monoculture and we kind of lived like
that for about a decade I would say that
the biggest difference now is yes apps
like Tik Tok are breaking that by
showing you hyper-personalized feeds of
content specifically for you so you and
I don't have the same Tik Tok feed and
never the two shall meet
but I I look at hakua and the Costco
guys and that kind of mainstream Normy
internet virality that we're seeing
right now and I put most of the blame on
the pandemic which I've recently been
going back and and kind of reassessing
and my view of it now is that
essentially everyone that wasn't on
online before 2020 who would ever be
online came online and now we're getting
enough distance from this moment
where it feels like every month or
so very normal people do very normal
people things online everyone's like I
can't believe this is viral and then
they just become famous and and that is
a definite change from you know how
things worked in the
2010s is part of that that the pandemic
broke everyone's brain and they're
online well I I mean I think we can all
agree that yes we're all a little unwell
from being online during the pandemic
but no I would say it's internet culture
became culture in 2020 this is like the
moment where you know Steven coar is
wearing airpods and and doing his TV
show on Zoom from his bathtub you know
the the barriers broke down er every
family got a group chat that didn't have
one everyone's parents were suddenly on
Facebook 24/7 if they weren't already
it's it the internet stopped being a
subcultural space is is the is is what I
would argue can I follow up quickly on
this so it's interesting to me that
you've talked about how like we all used
to watch the same stuff on the internet
like Gangam Style and then it sort of
spread into subcultures with the foru
but then you have that that's that's
crossed with this theory that you have
that we all went online at the same time
um which is interesting because you then
have these new normal people celebrities
like we're talking about with hakua and
the Costco guys so do they transcend
this for unification or are these you
know memes the Costco guys and hakua are
they now dominant on a subp part of the
of a very large subculture on the
Internet or are they the the thing or
they a niche that Ronan and I only end
up in because we're normies so okay like
let's think about Grumpy Cat shall we so
grumpy cat is a weird looking cat that
went viral RIT cuz the cat looked weird
and the initial kind of uh virality of
you know an image like that 10 years ago
was being driven by people who were
super online power users uh bloggers
aggregators you know uh young people who
were super into Vine were sharing Logan
Paul videos like it was not mainstream H
and and most of what we sort of think
about as Internet culture as meme
culture has never felt very mainstream
but now because everyone is online and
because because they don't need
aggregators they don't need communities
to surface things for them it's it's
kind of becoming uh it's it feels
counterintuitive but essentially if
you're a super normal person who likes
really basic stuff like a [ __ ] joke
or going to Costco you can open up Tik
Tok and Tik tok's algorithm identifies
that and shows it to you and there's no
there's no Arbiter there other than the
Machinery of the app so that's why I
think we're seeing uh you what Max re
kind of dubbed the znet because if
you're just like a normal basic guy and
you open up Tik Tok it's going to show
you normal basic guy stuff uh as opposed
to 10 years ago where you might hear
about something viral and that like you
know weird redditors were talking about
you know pepy the frog or something that
those days feel over to a degree oh I I
am liking this and again the internet
Max Reed had defined as the network
adjacent to the sports internet of 40
something dads and the hustle internet
of Miami crypto [ __ ] and the
reactionary internet of Trad influencers
and what when I'm thinking about this as
a 40-some dad myself and who has plenty
of Normy friends in the early 2010s I
would have been the one surfacing what
is going viral for them and we all went
on group chats that probably went from
Facebook Messenger to even signal and
WhatsApp and then now they are just the
the meme time to delivery is so much
shorter if I'm sending it or they're
actually informing me of what's going
viral right like this morning my mom
sent me an Instagram reel making fun of
the United Healthcare
shooter like that's that's crazy that's
a crazy reversal I'm I'm the online one
you're the online guy I should be
sending her dank memes not the
opposite what happens to these smaller
online subcultures than do they still
exist are they bigger than before or is
there a chance that they just end up
getting subsumed into these broader you
know znet and normic culture parts of
the internet because I guess like
imagine somebody who's like in one of
like the online radicalization
communities cuz like this is this is the
thing with the internet the internet is
great for what's not normal because you
can sort of find a place to dissent or
you know object against the main
so if you were a really online person
there is probably a chance that you
gravitate towards some you know some
dissenting community in some way and
sometimes it ends up being a
radicalization or uh it could end up in
all these different things sort of maybe
that was what made the internet fun in
the beginning was it was just like yeah
they would never air this or they would
never talk about this on the mainstream
Airwaves that's exactly right but I
guess like now that the normal is there
do you think that these subcultures are
actually going to lose some of their
appeal to like let's say the normal
people who were on the internet and just
trying to find things they liked well I
think you're asking this question at a
very interesting moment because uh blue
sky is now north of 25 million users and
it's well on its way to let's let let's
say that by this time next year maybe
even sooner blue sky is going to be
around a 100 thou Blue Sky will be
around 100 million users which I looked
up this morning was what Twitter was at
it uh 2011 so like that's how fast this
Niche platform is growing and blue sky
to me is a total reaction to this
internet it is a all of the the the
remaining weird subcultures of the
internet decamping to there and using
the sites you know blocking and
filtering and list organizational tools
to carve out those spaces the other
thing here is that a lot of these
internet communities were based on
places like like you know they were
living in Reddit or Tumblr or
communities like that which were public
now they're on Discord and the only time
you might ever see them is when a meme
breaks containment from Discord so they
do exist it's just they're not nearly as
visible I think as they used to be until
something happens in one of those
communities like there's like the drama
around the Muppet fan account that was
doing like you know he was like creeping
on
followers for n asking for n oh you knew
about this R of course I'm just I'm
clearly an inhabit of the like my
internet is Costco guys but you guys are
seeing something else what happened with
these Muppets so there's a guy who was
running a muppet him and his wife were
running a fan account for the Muppets
and then a bunch of followers of this
account uh put him on blast and was like
this guy is going around saying he's
polyamorous and he's using that as an
excuse to hit on and like sexually
harass his followers and then a bunch of
other Muppet fan accounts like came out
with statements being like we don't my
God like this you know we condemn this
guy
and and I think that's like a really
good model for thinking about this stuff
which is like up until that point I did
not realize how deep and vast the Muppet
fan Community was for adults and
apparently it's quite big this happened
on Discord or where what social network
does Happ it happened so it's a Twitter
it's an X account right but it uh all
the all the malfant if you will was
happening in DMS so I I I think that is
one way to think about this is
that the internet is probably as big and
strange as it was from the very
beginning but it's now deep hidden under
layers of dark social in group chats and
discords and DM groups and things like
that so I want to push back quickly on
the blue sky thing uh that it's going to
hit 100 million users I don't think
that's guaranteed at
all it's not that I don't like it it's
just that haven't we seen so many of
these social networks get that initial
spark and then fizzle I mean what makes
us think that blue sky is going to be
Twitter and not Clubhouse I think not
the point of the show but I want to just
P I think it's a fair question I think
if it was already Clubhouse the most
embarrassing moment in social media
history as far as I'm concerned internet
history yeah acting like that was
anything uh other than just like a
conference call Simulator for Bard Rich
guys during the pandemic I hate that app
um I think we it would have already
fizzled I I I I think the the product is
good and it's very malleable you can do
things with it that we haven't been able
to do with a social network in a long
time you can code things for it you can
develop apps for it it's fairly open and
I think the initial energy needed to
grow to 100 million in let's say a
year's time has are like the Domino has
already kind of falling there I think I
think it there could be you know history
gets you know things get crazy uh but I
do think if it continues at the pace
it's at it it will hit it and I also
Blue Sky for me kind of captures the
for you verse following dichotomy pretty
well because the following functionality
works really well when I go there I
don't get a heavy dopamine hit I get a
light dopamine hit I get the that that
Twitter used to be for me and I actually
think that could be the staying power
that as more people go on because
remember like going on to any social
network now and if you call Tik Tok a
social network Instagram you can't just
post and have something go viral like it
it it has to be really specific content
followed by really specific people so
blue sky to me it is that kind of return
to you have some kind of following
follower relationship people will see
your content and you can have some kind
of back and forth and engage in some
interests so I think they they could be
that space for everyone looking to go
back to that that other model and
everyone has gone towards the foru
algorithmic model so that's just getting
saturated yeah I I actually had my first
Blue Sky post my first ski break a
thousand reposts this week and uh God
people on the internet are dumb and like
discourse is so stupid regardless of
where you are but it was interesting to
sort of watch the how different virality
is on Blue Sky to something like X or
even Tik Tok because it is just like
you're generating discourse and then if
the discourse is interesting enough
people will just jump on and they'll
share it and they'll talk and they'll
fight with each other all day every day
the way Twitter used to be you know one
thing that's come to mind during this
discussion and watching this rise of
blue sky has been this question that
I've hadn't wrestled with about whether
social media is going to still be
relevant and Ryan you brought up a great
point right which is that a lot of the
action a lot of the most interesting
stuff on the internet now happens in
group chats and happens in Discord and
doesn't happen in the social media feeds
and another reason why I'm skeptical of
blue Sky's ability to grow is just
because it's so exhausted ing to try to
go and you know attack a new platform
and build a new audience and I know this
is only speaking for Content creators
but I also think that like with
something like a blue sky you have now
have blue sky you have threads you have
Instagram you have Twitter and instead
of like one winning out which there
won't be an absolute winner you're just
going to have diluted experiences
everywhere and if there's so much
interesting things happening within the
group chats why would you go to a sort
of less relevant social network to sort
of of see what's going on so I wonder if
social media itself is in a process of
becoming less relevant right now that's
interesting did you feel that way in
like
2012 so 2 I mean 2012 I think Facebook
was really the place that most people
were hanging out on so you might have
seen I I don't think so actually because
yeah 2012 you had Facebook that was
still a dominant platform you had
Instagram which was interesting and
Twitter was maybe at its
height I I I I would pick 2012 to
compare our current moment to because
yes you did have Facebook which was huge
and it was slowly becoming sort of the
the way that most people use the
internet especially on mobile you had
Twitter which was completely saturated
with the media and was sort of becoming
the centralized feed of American and you
know International media and politics
but you also had uh fairly large
competitors like Tumblr like Reddit like
Pinterest stumble upon I think was still
in the mix at that point right uh when
you and I first started working together
you know stumble upon was the thing
driving the most traffic not Facebook
for most Publishers so there were a lot
of websites and I didn't feel the time
that the internet was being diluted by
having so many fairly similar and
overlapping social media
platforms I I think it's kind of
annoying right now that we have a
million Twitter knockoffs and we have to
like kind of shuffle through them but I
think that's actually kind of clearing
up pretty quickly I mean
you're I was spending all year posting
the same stuff to X Blue Sky threads and
Linkedin and over the course of the last
couple months I've lost interest in kind
of all of them except for Blue Sky um so
you know I LinkedIn is fine yeah it's
good for traffic uh I don't read the
comments because they're bad but uh I I
I don't I don't feel so pessimistic
about having this many social media
sites CU it's kind of what everyone's
been asking for for a decade anyways
like more websites to go on more stuff
to look at so I think it's I think it's
all right I I'm optimistic about it I
also I think little competition is a
good thing but I think to push back a
little for me Blue Sky what's
interesting around it
is to me it's an actual social network
in the sense that I'm posting on there I
am not getting any engagement I'm
getting minimal midal engagement I'm
posting for the love of posting just
pure love of posting but when I do get
engagement it's from people that I've
interacted with online for years a lot
of the people who i' had not seen on X
in a long time and people I kind of
consider online friends acquaintances or
whatever so it's only really from an
actual Network and I think that's
interesting to me because that's what
the original promise of this was there
there's distribution and then there's
the actual kind of network and
engagement side and blue sky is the
latter which I think is good cuz there
has has been that on any of the big
Platforms in a long
time I would agree with that yeah so is
Blue Sky sort of a counterbalance to
this for you internet right now it is I
think just wait until it grows though
right because that's it I mean these
things always evolve in strange
directions but I think right now it is
reinvigorating uh a a muscle online that
has atrophied over the last five years
so Ryan I know we've talked broadly
about why things like Hua go viral but
it's very interesting to me what goes
viral on the nor normal person internet
as we're calling it or this internet so
to speak let's just go through two quick
ones uh that I'd love to get your
perspective on why this is so appealing
if you have any thoughts first of all
the Costco guys bring
the that's what we do bring
the bring the to this is a dad and a son
that eat the double CH double double
chunk chocolate cookie and the chicken
bake Costco and um they've turned this
into a bit of a med media Empire they
brought in the rizzler which is this
very cute fat kid from New Jersey who
has this Riz face where he like puts his
finger on his chin and he looks at you
and you're like oh God wa the CCO guys
brought in the rizzler rler not even a
Rel he was like a separate phenomen he's
he's another viral kid that they teamed
up with uh see I need to be explained
this one I got Hadler famous because he
was uh wearing a black panther costume
and trying to I think trying to convince
his dad that he was famous that he was
uh that he had superpowers and his dad
just kind of mercilessly mocked him yeah
and it became super viral and now he's
joined forces with the Costco
guys yeah this is the Internet history I
I came here for today I genuinely
thought they were all related uh it was
a shock to me uh truly a shock so why
the Costco
guys I would say that the Normie
internet the Zin internet you know
however you want to describe it there
are essentially two kinds of things that
are constantly going viral stuff that
local radio stations would talk about 30
years ago and stuff that would be on
America's Funniest Home Videos and the
CCO guys are essentially like a morning
radio like shock jock kind of vibe like
making funny songs and like talking
about like relatable stuff and then
they're making videos that are perfect
for American America's Funniest Home
Videos like it's just it's just the
stuff that has always been popular I
think um I like their videos because
they have a haunting uncanny valley
aspect to them where no one's really
blinking and they're kind of doing all
these weird things in like desolate
Suburban Florida parking lots and
shopping malls and stuff but uh I think
most people just think it's funny well
there was this one video where you saw
like a behind the scenes of the dad
coaching AJ wait big
Justice the dad coaching big Justice
into every single line he was going to
say and it was uh quite haunting it is
haunting although my read on it is like
they're all having fun and I think the
dad I mean I went deep into his like
down in the rabbit hole with him he was
like trying to become an influencer on
Facebook for a while with like a talk
show about beer or something and I think
he used to be a wrestler and now he's
trying to go back into wrestling based
off the fame of the Tik toks but he's
like involving his family and I don't
know like if you compare that to like
the other stuff that's pop on the
internet like I think it's fairly
harmless
um it's goofy you know but I think it's
okay yeah I kind of like that the
America's Funniest Home Videos because
it it to me it's almost like or
Everybody Loves Raymond or some show
from even the 90s that was the
monoculture that was safe but just a
little interesting right I never
actually watched it but uh but Ju Just a
little fun and maybe it's just the
modern equivalent of that on like
whatever platforms exist now in that a
network TV I think that's right it
doesn't look exactly like Network TV but
I think it's interesting that a lot of
the Aesthetics of what would be popular
on the radio or on network TV is being
recreated by people now on Tik Tok and
and it doesn't it's never going to be
exactly the same because like you don't
have this massive sort of budget or a
writer room or sort of like Executives
thinking about how to reach you know
people in Springfield or whatever but
there's always I think going to be
appetite for just like basic relatable
slop so is this a good thing instead of
the suits on at Rockefeller Center
choosing what's going to be good
now uh I don't even know what the Costco
dad's name is but just regular buo AJ
buffo why do I know these people out
there just doing doing the work doing
the hard work understanding what people
will like is that you yeah you're asking
like is it better and I would say that
like my major concern with anybody in
their situation is are they being paid
are they like getting compensated for
what they're doing are the working hours
like Humane for the children like these
are the and you know these are the fears
I have with all of the people who turn
virality into sort of a business you
know because yeah Hollywood has a lot of
problems a lot lot of lot of bad stuff
happening there but you never know what
an individual might do to try to keep up
with the the viral machine one more
thing I'm going to say about this family
is I think they were about to go out of
style like the Costco guys were done
until they dropped the song yep we bring
the boom and sometimes you got reinvent
it you know sometimes you just got to
you got to shake things up I listened to
that I was like oh God here we go I
can't not click with these Costco guys
and I clicked and I was like oh this
song is good you seen their Christmas
video where it's like the whole family
Grandma they got lights going on
it's that that's terrible I love it I
every time they do they release a new
video I send it to everyone I know and
I'm like we should make a video like
this like why not as long as R's in it
I'm watching who do you think are the
biggest like early 2010's virality
moments who missed out on this Boomer
was it you know side-eyed Chloe the
little girl like uh the little girl meme
uh I mean cuz if the rizzler can wear a
black Panther suit and go viral and join
the Costco and collab with the Costco
guys who are all the people that missed
out on this this boom and uh Normie
influencers which memes do you wish had
made it I was talking to someone this
week who made the good point that like
Rebecca Black probably would have been
able to C catch this right yeah yeah but
to connect the two dots of like the of
Haka and the Costco guys what I do think
is really interesting here is that when
hakua blew up she was reached out to by
Jake Paul's production company and he
essentially created a company that
captures viral Stars Then figures out
how to effectively franchise them so
there's clearly now these groups that
exist that have been on the internet
long enough that they realize that okay
we can capitalize on this moment and and
we also saw this during the pandemic
with uh Ben lashes the meme manager who
was selling the rights to different
famous memes as nfts for a while there's
like a big interest right now around how
do you turn a viral moment into a
sustainable media business it doesn't
work totally all the time but it does
seem like there are people who are
trying to solve that problem right now
which is is curious to me yeah Ron Ryan
you even wondered in your post after the
uh HW Tu a moment whether her talk Tu a
podcast would be popular and it turned
out to be like one of the top podcasts
for a couple moments there right after
it launched right right up until the big
p reveal and then I think people kind of
lost interest and people don't the
reviews aren't great I would say you
know about the boyfriend right py is her
boyfriend and it turned out that he's
just some guy but people were like who's
Pooky CU she hadn't said like his real
name but he's just a guy guy oh you know
yeah I mean it is like um people in
relationships won't post their
significant other because I think they
get more likes that way I don't know is
that a real thing uh it's a thing for
like uh Korean pop Idols Japanese pop
Idols you're not supposed to say you are
in a relationship so that the fans can
kind of pretend that there's they're
dating you so I can see the psychology
of that working on Instagram as well
right so uh one last one I want to talk
about is this Lily Phillips and and we
should talk about only fans because she
is an only fan star that has been
talking about um Sleeping with a
thousand people yes uh and she slept
with like 100 men in a day at the end of
20124 and for some reason I think the
algorithms are pushing that very hard so
does she fit into that like kind of talk
radio show type of thing and it's not
only the algorithms by the way she's
been covered by like almost every you
know entertainment news site from the
post to Daily Mail what do you think
Ryan so Lily Phillips was getting a lot
of pickup because she's part of a wave
of only fans creators that have smartly
realized that if they go viral with
their clothes on they can drive
subscriptions to their only fans right
so she started kind of experimenting
with viral stunts
she then decides that she's going to try
to break the world record for most
people slept with in one day which is
currently 919 and it's held by the
actress Lisa Sparks I looked this up the
other day is that even possible yeah
anyway I don't want to get into
Logistics but it's time to think about
it so uh Lily has said that she is now
training for a thousand men in one day
so she tried a 100 men the reason it
went super viral is because Josh Peters
the South African YouTuber that once
pranked Katie Hopkins by giving her a c
n award uh if you ever saw that video
during the pandemic it's pretty good he
went to London and filmed a behind the
scenes of Lily Phillips sleeping with a
100 guys and in that video which is
absolutely brutal to watch like I I I
watched some of it I was like this is
the darkest thing I've ever seen she
breaks down and starts crying uh
afterwards and that moment has I think
been politically
weaponized by a lot of rightwing uh and
Far Right accounts on X who are sort of
pointing at it like this is you know
this is the end of Western Civilization
I don't think what Lily Phillips is
doing is particularly new though because
like I would say every nine months since
the internet was invented we have all
started screaming at each other about
something a porn star was doing like
remember like 10 years ago there was
like oh this new porn parody is so
messed up oh my God I can't believe they
would make this like I don't remember
that but I'll take your word for I was
on the porn parody beat for a while I
had a yeah and like you know I think
there's just kind of a natural
Fascination there um Lily Phillips
though because she's British I think has
smartly also figured out that she can
kind of tap into the British tabloid
culture to kind of generate interest so
I think I think she's just pulling a
bunch of levers at once here to kind of
get attention and and to to tie it back
to hakua and the Costco people and all
the rest like she's trying to monetize
this stuff she's trying to figure out
how to monetize it and for her it's much
easier cuz she can be naked on only fans
and then you can just go see that if you
want to pay um so in a lot of ways I
think porn stars and sex workers online
right now have a much easier way of
directly making money off of going viral
right so and it worked it worked for her
it does yeah this actually makes me in
the question of is this better or worse
than the days of people in suits at Big
media companies deciding what would be
Normie culture now like the most
extreme is the easiest road to it which
is not uh not the most heartening thing
but I guess it's democratized a bit more
so yeah I I I it's funny I've been asked
several times recently by like other
reporters other Publications you know
the simple question of does any of this
matter which is I think this question
that a lot of people in the US
particularly right now are asking after
the election where we had you know nine
months of insane memes that kind of
ended up meaning nothing like brat
summer meant nothing and so I think a
lot of people right now are saying okay
well this thing that's going viral like
should I care about it which I think is
the wrong question because it doesn't
really matter if you care about it or
not it's just happening and in a lot of
ways I think now more so than ever it is
just simply a reflection of the national
ID the sort of collective
unconsciousness kind of idea and and and
I think it's very basic and and kind of
dumb like I just think it's I it's just
like a rolling Cascade of dumb stuff you
know Ryan I don't want to spend too much
time on this but I have to ask you how
big is only fans and how did it get that
big how big is only fans yes very big um
a recent report in Newsweek uh estimates
that 1.4 million American women are
using only fans that's I mean we have
only 300 million people so there they're
using it they're they're using it as
creators as creators correct I think one
other note on that as the on the
business side of it it was reported they
made $1.3 billion in Revenue $658
million in profit like that level of
profit margin is you just don't see in
any kind of business basically other
than software I guess but I mean they're
basically just raking in pure profit
from all of this as well so yeah and you
should take what only fans models say
with a bit uh with a great salt because
they are trying no that's the that's the
company though no no no but for for what
I'm about to say because they're they
they they can be provocative on purpose
to get your attention but one only fans
model recently Sophie rain claimed that
she made $43 million on only fans in a
year you know that's a lot of money
that's a lot of money um my foot photos
on there are not doing nearly as well
unfortunately but uh it is and and the
thing is
like it has really changed the UT like
the nature of what we're seeing online
because I think many young people
especially women on only fans who are
using it to make a living have realized
that a a site like
Instagram will never reward you for a
million for 10 million views not really
it it's it's not it's not sustainable so
I think another factor for why viral
content is getting stupider is because
people just aren't spending a lot of
time and effort on it because they want
you to go click and pay to go look at
their real stuff so as pay walls have
filled up the web I think that has also
changed the nature of what we're all
seeing which is that it's all getting
lazier and sillier because it and more
provocative because it's trying to get
you to go behind the pay wall I guess
the public content is just lead gen for
the paid stuff so you're you're all
seeing the entry level uh appetizer at
best
okay so there's there's a lot more that
I want to speak about including uh the
hot ones BuzzFeed has recently sold hot
ones and whether the future of media is
eating eating hot wings um also all
these crypto coins that are part of the
internet right now and some of the
online discussion around the UHC shooter
and uh why it seemed to create a bit of
a realignment among groups online so
we're going to do that right after this
and we're back here on big technology
podcast with Ryan bradrick he writes the
newsletter garbage day it's garbage day.
email you can go sign up for today he's
also the host of the panic World podcast
and we're also here with Ronan Roy of
margins um but right before this R Ronan
told me all right Alex if we're going to
talk with Ryan about internet culture we
have to talk about effectively what's
happened to BuzzFeed and what it's done
with its assets Ryan and I were both at
BuzzFeed so I'll turn it over to ronon
you can fire it away with any questions
well so they sold off first we feast
which is the uh like a parent company of
the hot Ones hot wings uh TV show or
YouTube show for 82.5 million or 2x what
Sophie rain makes and then uh it was
also it's interesting because like from
the pure like almost Corporate Finance
standpoint basically BuzzFeed took out a
ton of debt even to go public uh to buy
up complex networks they had to shed
that asset this is the next big asset
that they're trying to shed to make
their debt payment so BuzzFeed as a
business is in a lot of trouble and is
just trying to clean up their balance
sheet but in the press release the most
ridiculous part of this was Jonah
Paretti said uh that basically this is
part of the media company BuzzFeed in
strategic transformation into a media
company positioned to fully benefit from
the ongoing AI Revolution so
somehow hot eating chicken wings on TV
gets you $83 million
and also BuzzFeed is going full Ai and
proudly so so I think this is probably
one of the weirdest but most important
media stories going on right
now I think it's important to point out
that for people who don't know hot ones
was created by complex so it it is not
like it did not come out of the same
world that Alex and I were in it was
purchased by buzzed and I they're
selling it and I I am a hot ones
Defender I think that show is great and
I think I think uh it deserves honestly
like what it gets it's it's very popular
and I think it's very
clever I think it's also fascinating
that a digital media company doesn't
know what to do with it because it's
very M like the the first ref Feast
company as I understand it was created
after the show started to get bigger not
the other way around and and I I think
that to me is the major takeaway here is
that the media companies of of the ts
are not equipped to even maintain the
successful internet properties of the
2020s it's just I think it's just a
totally different philosophy and mindset
actually do you think the the Logan and
Jake Paul media management company would
be better equipped to handle something
like first we Feast at scale than a than
a buzzfeed I think so I I I I would
guarantee they have far less overhead
because like they probably have like
four employees he working 14 hour days
or something hey if you work by the way
for the Paul Brothers you should
unionize if you hear this uh you should
unionize I that'd be really funny um no
I I I think that like I view the the
digital media companies of the 2010s you
know the the buzz feeds the gawkers The
Vices the mashes whatever as a weird uh
like like crom magnum man Missing Link
uh between two very different eras of
how media is made so they kind of
appeared and they're like okay we're
gonna act like a newsroom we're gonna
act like a Media company but we're going
to make content that is essentially just
like worthless garbage that goes online
that like can go viral for ad traffic
right and the problem with that is that
you have a lot of people with a lot of
jobs that like you don't really need if
you're making a YouTube channel and I
think that is essentially what the
transition that we've just seen is that
you can just do it much cheaper and much
easier and much more nimbly if you
create a company that's meant for making
content not for making articles and
investigations and all the rest of it
and Ryan it's very interesting because
some of the things that we started
talking about at the very beginning of
this show the transformation of social
networks from follow models to for you
is sort of partially responsible for the
diminishment of a site like BuzzFeed
which was basically predicated at being
effectively a website that was a for you
site right it was going out and finding
out what was interesting and then
surfacing it to you and then you would
share it online whereas like the
algorithms became so good for the social
media companies that you didn't really
need like the core purpose of BuzzFeed
anymore that's my diagnosis at least
yeah I I had heard some behind the
scenes chatter after the dress that
sites like Facebook yeah this internet
meme that people are like is it blue and
black or black blue and white and gold
yeah yeah everyone saw something
different yes and I had I had heard some
background chatter at different social
platforms you know places like Facebook
that were so horri IED by the spread and
sort of complete domination of one thing
on their site that it was almost like uh
like a fishing attack it was almost like
a like a worm and and I I do also think
that when you're thinking about why the
internet has changed that was also part
of it which is that all these platforms
were so inundated by one thing to such a
degree that they're like this can never
happen again it it breaks our sight oh
my God I love this conversation right
now I mean no but I like if the dress
was this critical inflection point where
at first and again you're right cuz at
that point when was that
2015 right around mid2 say that was when
Facebook shifted from distribution to
actually like for news companies and
media companies to actually wanting to
be the ones to own and host the content
yes and post your videos here post your
memes directly here and you can get more
traffic by sharing it so maybe the dress
was the uh critical inflection point
where the platforms took over it was the
uh oppenheimer's bomb yeah it it changed
everything for digital media yep that's
my theory and then we exploded that
watermelon on Facebook live and they're
like all right that's it enough of
BuzzFeed you know like you know you
can't F you can't force it you know you
can't you can't force it like that um
yeah it's just a totally different
landscape now and you don't need a
company of 700 to a th000 people to make
videos on YouTube like oh wait sorry the
the watermelon to remind myself and
listeners it was
BuzzFeed what what exactly happened
again the try guys and the try guys
wrapped uh a watermelon with rubber
bands until it exploded on Facebook live
yeah put it on Facebook live so
everybody was tuning in to see when the
watermelon would blow up and it had just
obscene numbers of concurrent viewers
like probably uh beat out almost all of
Television viewership that week right
and you don't need a company with $300
million in capital and a th000 employees
to put rubber bands around to water
maybe you did I don't know the tried
guys they were great they tried lots of
stuff they're still trying things
they're still trying stuff to this day
they say they're out there trying things
you know good for them um yeah I you
just you just don't uh and and I also
think that I I mean we're seeing this
massive shift speaking of the triy guys
but like there's another former BuzzFeed
crew the The Watcher team who got in hot
water with their users this year for
trying to launch a subscription service
because they couldn't afford to grow
their company anymore off of YouTube
revenue and I think that is a a massive
Trend that's happening everywhere right
now you just can't run a proper
company with viral traffic anymore
doesn't it doesn't doesn't translate
Ryan can we um talk a little bit before
we go about this sort of
the political side of things or yeah I
would still call it a political side of
things so there was this shifting of um
a lot of these comedy and mainstream
podcasts that supported uh Donald Trump
and the runup to the 2024 election and
it's been interesting to watch what's
happened uh in the past couple months um
as like they gained these audiences and
and even some of the political channels
and then sort of we're almost boxed into
views and then are starting to lose some
of those audiences just you know one
example I think that when this UA the
United Healthcare shooter uh was
revealed or even after you know right
immediately after the shooting a lot of
their audiences became pretty pro-
shooter and they became uncomfortable
with that and so talk a little bit about
like what happened there and you know
whether we're going to see a further
realignment uh with these audiences and
these online entertainers so
the the the shooter's age is 26 right so
that
means uh 10 years ago uh right when
Donald Trump is sort of gearing up you
know that's the year of gamergate that's
the start of the Breitbart kind of LED
culture War
era that guy was 16 so he has
essentially only lived in a world of
culture of online culture war and I
think it's very telling that the minute
he you know car allegedly carried out
this
attack a lot of people in that same age
cohort were like does the culture War
not matter like should we just like go
after CEOs instead and in fact I I I was
I've written about this where you see on
Reddit all these posts about like we're
going to give up the culture War for a
class war now and to me that speaks to
the I think the the hollow and the and
the sort of loss of energy around
culture War topics because I think
people are just really bored of it um it
can't really stay you know it doesn't it
doesn't hold um and so I I do think
we're seeing a realignment I don't know
if it'll last you know the the the
online right is very good at reinvention
but right now I do think a certain era
of this stuff is ending in a in a very
violent and and and strange way sorry
can you explain that like why why I mean
the culture War not mattering and ending
it seems like the culture War has just
been present in American life from the
from the beginning the pop the online
popularity of the uh the United
Healthcare
shooter to me speaks to a desire among
young internet
users for a
better I I don't want to say Target but
like a better a better focus of their
anger like they are angry we know that
there are is an internet full of angry
young men and Steve Bannon identified
how to get these on his side 10 years
ago he's been very open about using
milonopoulos to weaponize gamergate to
activate this online
Army I think that a lot of that stuff is
beginning to feel kind of silly and I
think that this is a an inflection point
for a lot of these guys who are
realizing that you know spending all day
moaning about how women don't like them
on on X like isn't really satisfying
them anymore and we this happens all the
time like the the the gamergate era came
directly after the new atheism movement
which was a similar attempt at sort of
engaging with a new kind of young man
archetype so I think we are seeing it
yet again and and and I don't know where
it's headed but it does feel like a
change is currently happening I mean
that's it's kind of if that's what's
happening where like the where people
who feel disenfranchised and hurt by the
system uh begin taking their anger out
and well obviously we don't really know
much about this alleged shooter why he
did it uh but we do know about the
celebration of it and if they start
taking their their anger out and sort of
channeling it in these ways it could
sort of um and it's like kind of scary
to even say this but like it could sort
of prage a a you know pretty violent uh
and dark era of American life if that's
the case I think though at least let me
know if I am reading this or
understanding this correctly like it's
not that necessarily it's this very
specific thing is the future like uh
shooting CEOs and powerful people is
what it is it's just that the things
that we've been talking about for the
last eight years are no longer
interesting and I kind of do think that
because I mean one thing I'll say even
in terms of trump in this last political
campaign I found to be less interesting
on a kind of day-to-day basis and I
thought maybe that actually would not be
a good thing for him I mean he obviously
ended up doing very well but but the way
he was interesting it almost felt like a
band an old school rock band playing the
same songs 20 years down the road you
might even go see them and it's fun but
it's just not that exciting like it felt
like the issues and the the the it was
all the same thing and then we're moving
to something else I don't know what that
is but it's not going to be able to be
defined traditional right left yeah
there there was a really interesting
moment on a recent episode of Pierce
Morgan where he's interviewing Peter
teal and the United Healthcare shooter
is a big fan of Peter teal he was he was
a big Avid Reader of Elon Musk and Peter
teal and a lot of what you would call
like the radical Centrist reactionary um
you know online tech guy kind of thing
right and you can kind of see Peter teal
begin to realize that this Internet Hate
Machine that has been taking its anger
out on women and children and minorities
for the last 10 to 15 years could be
pointed at people like him and and you
can see I mean he's always sweating cuz
he's just like he's very moist he's like
a very moist man but you can kind of see
the fear in his eyes as he realizes that
like the the Pandora's box that has been
opened is now very unpredictable and I
do think it's shifting and evolving and
we just don't know which direction it's
headed in is it possible that the
culture war is less interesting
basically because the Republicans won I
mean I'm like throwing this out there
but like it is possible you know the
left said whatever they could about how
you know Trump was a racist misogynist
um and he ended up you know pulling in a
majority of Hispanic men and probably
more minority voters than um than recent
Republicans have and so like if that
didn't stick it's like Okay g it's
almost like all right move on from the
culture War a big prediction I have for
this next Trump Administration is that
Trump starts to feel like the
establishment because he won the popular
vote and he so thoroughly dominated this
election so he can't really he can't
really sort of continue as this like
Renegade cuz this is like this is his
second round anyways and so I suspect we
will start to see the beginnings of a if
not anti-trump reactionary movement on
the right or sort of within young man at
least a an attempt to kind of
redefine being an Angry Young Man that
is not Downstream of trump I I I I think
that is definitely a real
possibility yeah I think Al as you said
it could be both that the right one and
in I mean many ways a lot of the issues
that three four years ago seemed to be
completely dominant in another Direction
and now completely aligned in the other
but I think it's just I mean going back
the for you feed demands new content
demands new topics the algorithm does
not favor the same old tired stuff we
never would have guessed HW Tua would be
a thing like and uh I mean it still
Builds on a classic the [ __ ] joke but
on top but other than that it's it's new
and the the algorithm demands something
new and you can't just keep saying the
same thing over and over again so it'll
be different and that's kind of scary
some ways but it's it's been scary for a
while so and to try to connect the dots
with everything we've talked about today
I think I can do this uh are you guys
familiar with like Jonah Pet's Master's
thesis that gets passed around sometimes
I am unfortunately sh from the audience
so he he essentially theorized that in
late stage capitalism on algor on sort
of algorithmic social platforms identity
would become very important because
that's how you would essentially link
with other users the internet is a very
frictionless identityless place and so
people create these structures to find
each other and that was true for 10
years and I think that really informed
our politics I think that the culture
war is a direct result of sort of
reconfiguring society to be based on
like busty girl problems and like 16
things that only short guys would know
you know it's it's it's an outgrowth of
that you know you're from this
neighborhood of Kansas City when exactly
but that stuff doesn't work anymore that
stuff doesn't work in terms of how
people uh in terms of what people care
about it doesn't really go viral
identity has become so fractured and I
think so boring for people that I am
waiting to see what replaces it and you
know it could be it could be class
Consciousness sure I don't know but I I
I think it is changing and I think young
people are clearly desperate for
something new some new way of
interfacing with each other online and
thus everywhere else and I think we are
right now in the process of watching
them discover what that is and figure
out what that is but I think it will be
different and it will inform our
politics Brian before we go I just want
to ask you one thing that's kind of been
bugging me through this conversation and
I'm sure you're going to have a smart
answer to it but this idea that we
started off with um
with people all using the internet once
covid started uh weren't they already on
the internet like that's to me is it
just like a matter of usage or I see Ron
John's also shaking his head but I want
to turn this over to you just to um sort
of highlight the the magnitude of the
change that's led us to where we are I
think before Co yes everyone probably
had a smartphone everyone was you know
familiar with a couple sites like
Facebook and Instagram and they were on
there and they check them you know every
couple hours and that'd be
it because of Co and specifically
lockdown in the early months of the
pandemic there was not really any new TV
being made there was not really any new
movies coming out there was not really
much else you couldn't really go you
couldn't go outside there was really not
much else to do other than stare at the
internet and for about 3 to four months
all of the world was being run by
Twitter like just like tweets were're
running the whole planet and I think it
created an effect where many normal
people who maybe would sit down at the
end of the day and watch
NCIS or like wake up in the morning and
drive to work listen to the radio a lot
of those people went down internet
rabbit holes and they developed new
hobbies and they discover new interests
and they started using social media in a
way they never used before so maybe it's
wrong to say that like more people came
online but I do think an overwhelming
amount of people for the maybe the first
time ever actively engaged with the
internet and thus were shaped by it and
now we're living in that in the
aftermath of what that did to people's
brains that's that's that's how I would
describe
it wild ronon any final thoughts or
final questions I
think my takeaway here is we're
definitely I think we're definitely at
an really interesting inflection point I
think what you had said uh this is
basically 2012-ish in uh digital and
digital consumption years which I think
like that was the era was pivotable
pivotal people were on Facebook people
are starting to experiment with other
social networks uh people were online
more increasingly but we had no idea
what the next couple years would look
like much less decade so I think we're
definitely at the beginning of uh
something new hopefully it's not too
scary but starting out so yeah hopefully
it gets a little little more fun the
newsletter is garbage day. the podcast
is panic world you can find it in your
podcast app of choice you could also
find Ron John's email at read margins.
and you can listen to Ronan and I every
Friday here on big technology podcast
Ryan Ronan thanks so much for coming on
great speaking with you guys this was
fascinating thanks for having me see you
soon all right bronan all right Ryan
we'll have to have you both back on to
do this again next year to see how big
blue sky is all right everybody thanks
so much for listening and we'll see you
next time on big technology podcast