Communal Living, Sex, And Silicon Valley's Groupthink Problem — With Ellen Huet

Channel: Alex Kantrowitz

Published at: 2025-11-26

YouTube video id: _j9mWOXyhVc

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_j9mWOXyhVc

How does Silicon Valley, a place so
known for out of the box and independent
ideas, fall so often into group think?
We'll get into it right after this.
Welcome to Big Technology Podcast, a
show for coolheaded and nuanced
conversation of the tech world and
beyond. Boy, do we have a show for you
today. We're joined today by Ellen Uitt.
She is a features writer at Bloomberg
News and the author of a new book. And
here it is. It's called Empire of
Orgasm: Sex, Power, and the Downfall of
a Wellness Cult. Wild title. Definitely
a parental guidance episode. So, if you
have kids, I would definitely recommend
to uh reverse to our more recent
episodes. And uh if you don't, I think
you're really going to enjoy this one
because we are going to get into how
Silicon Valley so often falls into group
think, whether it is, you know, sort of
the off-campus activities they do or
even when it comes to things like this
AI bubble and the p the pursuit of AGI
and Ellen is the perfect person to speak
speak with us about this. So Ellen,
great to see you. Thanks for having
>> welcome to the show. Thanks for being
here.
>> Uh all right, so you wrote this book. Um
we're going to get into it in a moment.
Um,
>> you managed to say the title without
laughing.
>> I did. I Let me um I I've been reading
I've been reading the book.
>> Show us the cover.
>> Well, here's
>> I should have brought I should have
brought my own copy.
>> Here's what I did. Cuz I've been reading
>> I've been reading it at my parents
house. Uh and um
>> and I just didn't want them to see what
the title was, but this is the book.
>> Well,
>> I just didn't want to have that
conversation, but we'll have it here.
>> I've been trying to get my friends, now
that the book is out, which by the way,
the cover is tasteful. It's like
>> it's a nice cover.
>> It's just the words on it are the ones
>> I like to say it's a book for your sexy
intellectual friends because although
it's about sex, it's really like an
investigative account, you know, and
very intellectual. It is hilarious to me
that you rip the cover off because I've
been trying to get my friends to take
photos of them like reading it on the
subway and send it to me so I can, you
know, so for any listeners who read the
book, take a picture of you reading it
in public and, you know, I just think
it's a great cover.
>> It won't it won't be me because we have
we have no cover on mine, but but All
right. And and that is like a good intro
into what we're going to talk about
because um Silicon Valley is sort of
like a petri dish for place for
movements like the one we're going to
talk about and I think it really begins
with the group houses and this is
something that's often mentioned like
tangentially in stories about artificial
intelligence or Silicon Valley that the
founders lived in a group house uh with
many other founders and the stories
never really go too deep into what those
are. Um maybe because the writer doesn't
want to or maybe because it is too
complex of a topic in a sort of to sort
of do more than a driveby in a story
about something else. But they are core
to Silicon Valley's culture.
>> Yeah.
>> So tell us a little bit about what these
group houses are within Silicon Valley.
So I'll start by sharing a little bit of
like my own personal perspective on this
which is for many years I lived in a you
know communal you would I would call it
either communal living or like a
co-living house in San Francisco. Um
it's something that um I have a lot of
familiarity with like a certain part of
that scene which tends to be less
professionally focused. It's more about
like we live together but it's not
because like we're all founders or
because we're all working on AI but in a
you know that's very adjacent to a you
know lightweight network of group houses
in San Francisco, Berkeley, other places
in the Bay Area where they are a little
bit more organized around what you do
for a living. So it's like do you work
in AI? Are you like an AI researcher?
Are you a founder? Um there are
uh also
slightly you know if I were drawing a
constellation these would all be like
clusters near each other but it's like
there's also for example HF0 which is a
startup they like to call it like um
a monastery for hackers is their is
their their name and that's more of like
a temporary co-l livingiving situation
where founders come together and live
together for 12 weeks and focus really
hard a lot of them work on AI projects
and it's more of like a live-in startup
incubator that I wrote a feature about
last year. Um, there's like AGI house.
There's actually been like a debate over
there's two different houses, right,
>> that like to lay claim to the phrase,
>> okay, but you know, they are
professional houses. Uh, but I think to
me
>> the root of a lot of what we're seeing
in AI today comes like the AI debates,
the effective altruists, the
rationalists. Um, and then of course
there are some that are just driven by
pure profit. But it doesn't start right
with with the professional side of
things. It starts with an ideology. Uh,
and you've seen like companies like
Anthropic come out of houses like these.
So it's to me and you tell me if I'm
wrong here, ideology first. You have a
set of beliefs about the world and then
often times people from these houses
will go and start companies together.
>> Totally. I mean, the bond of living with
someone in a communal living situation
like that can really create um deep
connection and trust and I can imagine
it feeling like oh we've already lived
together. We've already um you know
overcome certain hurdles. We know how we
show up in this house like I feel much
more comfortable like building a company
with you or you're right that ideology
will often bring people to want to live
together and then they might like spin
out a company from that.
>> Right. They take effective altruism for
example. The idea is in some of their
it's it's uh earn to give or that in
some of of their ideology it's um let's
go start a really successful company to
uh you know then give away the profits
or influence the rest of the indust of
the industry to sort of take on our
values.
>> Yeah. Well, I think you're right that
ideology is what underpins these like
Silicon Valley has always been a place
where ideology
feels like this very motivating factor.
I think often it it is accurately so but
sometimes it might end up being like a
cover for other motivations but it is at
>> everybody does want to get rich like
let's put that on
>> that is true and and some people are
more or less honest about it um or
upfront about it but the truth is
ideology matters a lot too like it's
extremely important for founders to feel
like what they're working on matters and
is going to like have impact on the
world and I think having an ideology
that drives you
it it almost feels like
that that is what's going to bring
people together and that's going to like
lead them forward into like wanting to
make these really ambitious companies.
>> Right. So I would say not every Silicon
Valley company starts in a house like
this.
>> Yeah.
>> But for the broader picture of Silicon
Valley, these houses are much more
influential than I think we read about.
>> Totally. And I think the reason that
journalists sometimes struggle to write
about them and I've encountered the same
is that
>> it's just not that easily definable of a
category. And so, yeah, that it can be
it can be easier to just mention it
without needing to necessarily feel like
you're writing the entire comprehensive
thing about how these houses work
because
>> it's hard to track every single one,
>> right? So, that's that's step one. I
think we have to like sort of lay the
foundation that that's a core part of
what we see in the tech world. Now,
let's go to part two, which is
>> who are the type of people that
gravitate to Silicon Valley and fill
these houses. M
>> um
>> I I know I've spent a lot of time in San
Francisco, more than 6 years living
there. You've lived there for a long
time.
>> Yeah. Probably 12, 13.
>> It attracts a certain type of person. Um
>> often somebody looking for uh adventure
or didn't quite fit in at home, I think,
or um someone with a tremendous amount
of ambition. and they they go to Silicon
Valley and they often try to sort out
their underlying issues through work and
um and then often you see people who are
either part of these houses or you know
in their orbit they attend certain
programs right programs like Landmark
for instance or programs like Hoffman uh
which you have also uh spent some time
reporting on so talk a little bit about
you know what these they're
self-actualization programs or basically
programs built for the type of people
that gravitate to Silicon Valley. Am I
right?
>> Yeah. I mean, I I want to, you know, be
careful to caveat with like, you know,
not everyone falls into all these
categories, but I think if we're
speaking broadly, like, you're right.
People who gravitate to Silicon Valley,
they're looking to make a difference.
They tend to be very ambitious. Um, they
want to do things, you know, from first
principles andor slightly differently
than maybe how they perceive others in
the past have done it. And I think that
type of person is drawn to often these
programs that I would call personal
development or personal transformation.
There's kind of a whole industry of them
and some of them you might recognize.
You know, Landmark actually has a
decadesl long history associated with
this like predecessor group called EST.
Um Tony Robbins is kind of like a
classic example of these. Um, but some
of the ones that I know are popular
among tech types right now include the
Hoffman process, which is um, yeah,
something that like I am curious about
and like definitely want to like
potentially report more on, but that's
like a week-long intensiveish
retreat um, that kind of helps you
process some of the um, stories and
narratives in your life. Often times
these programs help you like reassess
the stories in your life with the idea
that it can help you unlock like a new
level of performance. Um, I know a lot
of people who have done like conscious
leadership group, which again, these all
might be like constellations on a map.
Like they're not all necessarily exactly
the same. And some of them are more
popular with Silicon Valley people than
than others, but they are all getting at
the same thing, which is like, oh, if
you can um immerse yourself in this
intensive experience, you can learn more
about yourself and maybe be a more
effective leader or more effective um
professional.
>> Right. There's also this core I I I
think I read about this in your book. Um
this core ideology to it. Uh I think
this is a quote directly from you. It's
about uh making people believe that they
have agency over everything, right? So
and also like
>> I mean Silicon Valley loves agency right
now, right? Yeah.
>> Oh well AI agents, right?
>> Oh yeah. No, no, no, not even that. Like
yes, AI agents, but the concept of
agency
as a personal quality is
really, for lack of a better word,
popular among rationalists and
rationalist adjacent people right now.
There's even um uh a couple people who
are writing a book about agency. The
idea of you can just do things. Have you
heard that phrase?
>> Yeah, I mean I think Sam Alman has said
that.
>> Oh, certainly. I mean, this is all
coming from the same soup. Um, so the
idea that you can just
um, you know, you can just do things is
kind of a rallying cry that that tries
to get people to tap into their agency.
And so, but yeah, agency is kind of
seen, you know, being like an agentic
person, having high agency. Like these
are all words that at least to me read a
little bit coded of like
they're a little coded for like
rationalists or rationalist adjacent
people, people who might work in AI.
this idea that like the world is a place
that you can have massive impact on um
and that you yourself are like a highly
powerful actor in the world rather than
someone who is um you know responding to
the environment around you. You can like
affect your environment very deeply.
>> I mean what is it's interesting that
that has to be said out loud. um like
what would be the alternative be be that
you sort of go with the flow and
>> yeah or that you feel like you're you're
kind of like a victim of your
circumstances. Um what's interesting to
me about agency being popular
>> in my view among a certain like circle
of tech people is that
>> agency is a different way of saying this
idea of like oh you should consider
yourself like radically responsible for
your life experience and the things that
are happening in your life. And that's
very much an idea that comes from these
personal transformation workshops and
lineages. So that is something that you
would find at Landmark, that's something
you'd find at Tony Robbins for sure.
That's something that comes up a lot at
one taste um in conscious leadership
group. And also this and so it's sort of
been reframed as agency, but it's all
getting at the same thing. Um, and I
would say the opposite is, yeah,
someone, you know, you can imagine
someone who laments the circumstances of
their life without thinking about how
they might change it, you know, and and
they they're like, "Oh, I was just born,
you know, without the ability to like
charm people." It's like, well, guess
what? If you were more agentic, you
would think of yourself and your
personality as more malleable. You would
think that you could learn skills that
you might otherwise like dismiss. So
it's people it's drawing a distinction
between people who kind of are like
throw up their hands and say like woe is
me these are my circumstances it's not
possible to change and other people who
would take a more quote unquote agentic
approach they would or high agency they
would say like okay well actually I'm
going to like think strategically about
how I'm going to change this about
myself I want to be um you know it's
like maybe it's like you want to find
you're single and you want to find a
partner it's like well you could lament
that the dating
market in San Francisco has a gender
ratio that is unfair to you and you
could complain about it or you could
construct like a strategic plan that
exposes you to the kinds of people that
you want to meet in settings where
you're likely to converse with them and
dedicate you know 15 hours a week to
this project then maybe you would be
more successful um and at least you
would have taken a like high agency
stance on this.
>> Yeah, I mean I've definitely met people
in Silicon Valley who think that like
that.
>> Yeah, for sure. And I think that kind of
um
uh like
what's the word I want to say? It's like
kind of
ultra strategic or maybe like really
laying out
exactly the plan for doing something
like that. It it does read a little bit
of the personality type that you might
imagine in in certain circles in San
Francisco,
>> right? And so this so it's so okay going
back to our big picture. Um, people come
in, many live in these houses, many
participate in these programs, they
believe they have agency. It's a place
that's sort of uh maybe that's part of
the secret sauce of Silicon Valley
because go ahead and try to go meet your
partner or if you really think that you
can change things or you can just go do
things, start a startup, join a startup.
>> It's like the hot bet for place for
activity like that.
>> Yeah. And it's not even like they're
necessarily wrong like in some sense
obviously I'm not arguing with it.
>> Yeah. Yeah. building a company can be a
way that you very quickly have like yeah
significant effect on the world around
you if you're you know if you're lucky
and if you're smart and so it is kind of
a high agency place I'm not at all
surprised that this is like a pervasive
belief in that culture
>> okay and so uh this is our we're going
to start getting into m so if you're
again if you have kids listening this
would be a good time to hit pause um and
so but into this culture uh comes uh
orgasmic meditation Yeah.
>> What is that?
>> I'll give you the basic, you know, the
basic explanation so we can move on to
discussing it. Um, the book that I
wrote, Empire of Orgasm, is the story of
a company called One Taste, which was
started in San Francisco in 2004 by a
woman named Nicole Dayon, um, and a
co-founder, but she's really like the
leader, the visionary, like the creator
of this company. And
one taste the company sells the way that
it made money was it sold courses on
orgasmic meditation. And orgasmic
meditation is a practice in which um a
stroker, usually a man, puts on a glove
and some lube on his left index finger
and strokes the clitoris of a woman in a
very prescribed manner for 15 minutes
exactly. And the only goal of this
practice is for both parties um to
meditate on the sensations in their
body. And
the you know the arc of this company is
basically that it it grew pretty big in
San Francisco and beyond. It was in New
York, LA, uh San Diego, Austin, London,
uh Australia. Um it grew pretty big in
the 2010s. It was like endorsed by Tim
Ferrris, Gwyneith Paltro, Khloe
Kardashian, like kind of got pretty big
mainstream success for an obviously
fringe practice.
And then um in the 2020s, it was uh the
leaders of this group, you know, were
basically uh there were a lot of cult
allegations that emerged about life
inside the company and then they were
indicted by federal prosecutors and then
charged with the crime. and um were
convicted this summer in a jury trial in
New York. And so the leaders are
currently in jail awaiting sentencing.
That's kind of like the whole arc. But I
think what's interesting and relevant to
this conversation is the way that
this company,
you know, reflects some of that like
it's like a different take on some of
that same ambition and ideology and like
just the way that um Silicon Valley and
San Francisco can be this uh yeah petri
dish for growing like
ideas that maybe start off in a good
place but then can quickly like warp
into something
overpowering or something that can like
warp your thinking away from like
rational thought and into like stranger
corners.
>> Right. And I mean the root of this was
at 7th in Fulsome. Yeah. In San
Francisco, which is like around the
corner from where I worked when I was
there.
>> Yeah.
>> Um
>> and eventually actually you know Yeah.
They for many years were based on one
block on Fulsome Street but eventually
moved their headquarters to
um Market Street. right across from
Uber, right across from Twitter. They
were like, if you know Tenth and Market,
it was basically like around there. And
um you know they you know it was like
the Nicole Dayon, the founder of this
company like she kind of did some of the
things that you know a tech CEO in the
early 2010s might have done as well. She
spoke at South by Southwest. She gave a
TEDex talk. They held conferences at
like the Regency Center in San Francisco
where everyone had their little lanyard.
Like it really reminded me of the
earlyish days of big tech developers
conferences like Google IO, Facebook F8.
The idea that you would come and spend a
few days like immersing yourself in the
world of this startup or this tech
company um in like a corporate
conference. They even had two of those
in 2013 and 2014 for orgasmic
meditation.
>> Yeah. That's okay. So this the similar
there are those are the similarities.
Yeah.
>> The difference is that people will come
and practice.
>> Totally. Go ahead.
>> There's also a side of this that is
Yeah. pretty different from like what
you'd think of as a Silicon Valley.
>> I mean at IO and F8 people don't have
their pants off. At least not by design.
>> Yes, that is fair. I mean the other
thing you know in some sense it was like
modeled One Taste was modeled like a
startup but in many senses it was also
an expression of the rapidly growing
wellness industry. So remember like Goop
started in 2008. This company was really
taking off like kind of in the late
2000s, early 2010s and throughout the
2010s. And so it was more of like they
also had kind of the like more woo woo
like wellness angle. And then of course
it was um a sexual practice. Um I mean
they called it a spiritual practice but
it's obviously sexual. This is like
genital touch. And so the pitch of
orgasmic meditation to the public was
essentially that if you did this
practice regularly and if you did this
practice regularly in the same way that
you might do sitting meditation, you
know that calling it a practice is like
and calling it orgasmic meditation was
very intentional to kind of put it in
the like wellness and mindfulness boom
that we were seeing in the valley. Um
but basically if you did this orgasmic
meditation practice every day the pitch
was that you would have better sex,
better relationships, better feel more
intimacy and connection in your life,
have a better uh connection to your
vitality, your desire, your intuition,
um all sorts of things that truthfully
people are often looking for. Like the
the practice appealed to people who say
they were like in a long relationship
and they were losing their um romantic
spark. Maybe they were one of the 10 to
15% of American women who struggled to
have an orgasm. Maybe they were like
someone who struggled with performance
anxiety during sex. Or just anyone who
felt like they had had a complicated
sexual history or trauma in their past
that they wanted to like use this
practice to really address it, which
which is something that I think people
are drawn to and often don't have that
many places to talk about. So that was
another way that like one taste brought
people in is they were selling something
that this very vulnerable thing that a
lot of people yearn for and and and are
often looking for answers. Um and that's
very common in the wellness industry
like it it will offer a promise that
really pulls at some pain point in your
life,
>> right? Oh, but this so I don't want to
get too deep into it, but this is not
like goop, right? Goop, you maybe get a
moisturizer uh and put it on your face.
This is this to to do this. It sort of
it happens in public, right? So you're
most most of the time at least
>> uh they will sometimes do public
demonstrations,
>> right?
>> And then if you were a serious
practitioner, you might gather for group
orgasmic meditation sessions, which in
some senses, yes, you're doing it in
front of other people, but it's not like
in to to the public,
>> like not in the middle of Market Street,
but it's still
>> not. What I So, as I'm reading it, I'm
just like, what? How does somebody go
from learning about this to saying, you
know, yes, I'm going to take my pants
off and, you know, have this uh orgasmic
meditation experience in front of others
or be the one that's
>> that's, you know, doing the stroking.
Like, it's it that to me it was like,
>> how do you get from point A to point B?
>> I'll walk you through like a typical
person's experience. Um, and again I,
you know, I interviewed tons of people
who were involved in this company and
this is like, you know, an amalgamation
of like some of their experiences. So, a
typical person, let's say you're like a
woman in your late 20s. Maybe it's hard
for you to have an orgasm and this has
been okay in your life, but you've been
like interested in trying to like, I
don't know, figure out is there a way
that I can address this or like
understand my sexuality better? And you
might maybe you're taking like yoga
teacher training courses and then
someone at yoga teacher training
mentions like oh if you're interested in
exploring your sexuality like try
orgasmic meditation. So you're like oh
orgasmic meditation what's that? And you
attend one of the like public events
that this group tended to host once or
twice a week.
>> They had an interesting name for it.
Right.
>> Yeah. They called them turnons at some
points or also um
uh in-group uh which was sort of this
like winking name referring to sort of
like in-group outgroup dynamics in in
some of these groups
>> and the people that came in didn't they
call them something like
>> oh Marks yeah sometimes they would um
jokingly but also it's obviously
somewhat serious they would um refer to
these potential customers as marks um
which is a suggestion of you know one of
the allegations leveled at this company
by by many of its former remembers is
that its sales practices were very
predatory. So again, the way this the
way the the way that One Taste made
money was by selling courses and it
wasn't just courses on orgasmic
meditation, if you got deeper, it would
be courses about like how to live your
life in alignment with the philosophies
of orgasmic meditation. And these
courses could cost upwards of 20 or
$30,000 and they might be like two week
intensives or this kind of thing. And in
that way again those group those
transformational
in a way those transformational packages
and courses are similar to like what you
might find at like you know intensives
at like Tony Robbins or Landmark or that
kind of thing. So follow that path.
>> Yeah. So the typical person like comes
in, they they go to these intro evenings
where again everyone's close day on and
you just play communication games where
people like talk openly and vulnerable
vulnerably about their feelings and
maybe there's like a little bit of
suggestive or sexual like undertones,
but it's not like a sexual experience.
But then like the people who work at One
are so friendly and they like come up to
you and make really strong eye contact.
They invite you to come back again and
maybe you're like, "Oh, these people
seem cool. Maybe we could be friends.
And then you come back and maybe they
invite you to come help with a weekend
course or come take a weekend course.
And that's where you might learn to the
principles of doing orgasmic meditation.
And you might see a demo from like two
of the more advanced students who like
do a demo to the class. And then you
know for many people from that point on
some people just take a few courses at
one taste and they're like great I got
what I needed. I'm going to leave. And
for other people, they're like, "No,
actually, I really want to go deeper. I
want to understand myself in this way. I
want to like experience the kind of
personal transformation that I see the
other staff members appear to be like
displaying." And for those people on
that path, what they typically ended up
doing would be moving out of their
previous home and moving into a communal
residence with other One Taste people.
So again, that's kind of like group
house culture. leaving their previous
job and starting to work for one taste,
usually on the sales team because again
that was the main way that the company
made money. Um, and gradually distancing
themselves from their previous
relationships, their friends and family
who no longer really can understand this
like new orgasmic lifestyle that you are
living. That tends to just happen, you
know, on its own. And so people who then
get really immersed in this world, you
know, One Taste kind of has like its
public face which is like we sell
courses on orgasmic meditation. But for
people who move into that deeper that
inner circle, the experience does change
and it becomes more intense and it
becomes like well this company and this
community is all of a sudden your whole
life. It's where all your friends are.
It's your co-workers. It's your
employment. It's your home. It's your
spiritual community. Um the deeper you
get, the more grandiose some of the
claims about the power of orgasmic
meditation become. Um, they teach it as
like a way to access capital O orgasm,
which is redefined to no longer mean
like the moment of climax, but rather a
sort of broad erotic energy similar to
the force from Star Wars. This is actual
comparison people have made to me. This
idea that you can tap into capital O
orgasm to like fuel your life or guide
your intuition. Um, so it gradually
becomes more spiritual. And then you
know within that group there are like
serious allegations that the teaching
philosophies including this idea of high
agency and like the you know the sort of
um radical responsibility for your life
that some of those philosophies are then
the allegation is that those
philosophies are used to manipulate
people to pressure them into sex that
they didn't want to have to pressure
them into having sex with or doing the
own practice with an investor of the
company customers who might be willing
to sign up for more courses if they have
more access to sex. The you know people
told me that that the teaching
philosophies of One Taste were used to
yeah like kind of exploit people um
financially, sexually, all this stuff.
So that's that's kind of what leads to
all these criminal charges and the
criminal conviction and that. But um we
can you know we can get into it more if
you want.
>> Yeah. I actually have one more question
about the practice itself. Um so in your
book you and you talked about it here um
just now you said this practice can help
you focus on work, calm your mind and
unleash your potential. Um
I I don't I don't fully understand how
that how you get get there.
>> Well,
or how they get there. Well, basically
in some sense
again the main practice is you're doing
this partnered general stroking practice
but while that's happening you know
there's no goal the goal is not to like
reach climax it is to
>> you're actually not supposed to right
>> yeah or it depends if you become more a
more advanced practitioner it is a
little bit looked down on but I think
there's they it depends on how serious a
practitioner you are but yes
>> this is details I'll never get get
So um the idea is that you spend those
15 minutes meditating on the sensations
in your body and although it's an
unusual setup for anyone you know I've
done a fair amount of sitting meditation
for anyone who you know obviously a lot
of people in the valley do this too for
anyone who has spent regular time
meditating
that practice of noticing what's
happening in your body like I do think
there's a lot of value to it um it is
something that can help you navigate
outside of like your autopilot brain.
It's something that can help you notice
your um knee-jerk reactions and have
like a more wise response. So, even
though the orgasmic meditation
>> Yeah. Why does this have to be done
through orgasm? Well, I mean that's kind
of
>> yeah,
>> that's kind of their pitch is that this
is um not just the benefits of
meditation, but also the benefits of
like connection and intimacy with
another person that you're experiencing
this sense of meditation while having
this very intimate experience with
another human being. So that you know
that's their own pitch and like any sort
of wellness group is going to argue that
um
their solution is going to like have
holistic benefits, you know, beyond just
beyond just the thing. But I I do think
like when they argue like it's going to
help you, you know, improve your focus,
like this is legitimately what people
said when they had done a lot of
orgasmic meditation. Um whether it was
all group think or not. um we can get
into but basically like yeah part of
part of the idea was that yeah doing
this practice would help sharpen your
mind and in the 2010s
you know remember we had like the wisdom
2.0 know conference. It was like people
people were doing like mindfulness
workshops at Google. Like there was this
idea that mindfulness in the workplace
was going to improve productivity and
improve focus and like we did one
informance. I remember chewing on a
raisin and just like thinking about all
the sensations I was feeling as
>> I mean call me a little woo. I like that
stuff.
>> There's something to There is something
to it.
>> Of course there is. It's extremely lindy
as some of the uh as some people in
certain pockets of Silicon Valley would
say. Meditation's been around for a long
time.
>> Okay. So then um just stick to the
details of the court case, but where do
things go wrong?
>> Well, um basically the company was doing
fairly well and like had a lot of like
mainstream success. Again, Nicole, the
founder, was speaking on stage at the
Goop Health Conference in 2017. Um they
had these like endorsements, they were
making money. And um in 2018, I wrote
this big investigation for um Bloomberg
Business Week where it was the first
time that um people in the company or
former members of the the group talked
to me at length about these allegations
that the group was a cult. Um they
basically said that they'd been
exploited financially by being pressured
to take on debt in order to buy more of
these expensive courses. They said that
they had been um exploited sexually by
being pressured and sort of taught these
lessons that um you know pressured them
to have sex that they didn't want to
have in order to like further the
company's business. And so I wrote this
big story and the company kind of went
into hibernation in response to that.
And around the same time and in all
likelihood spurred by the story, the FBI
started investigating. And then that led
to many years of like the FBI looking
into whether a crime had happened here.
And then in 2023, federal prosecutors
charged Nicole, the founder, and Rachel
Churitz, who was kind of her like second
in command, the woman who had been head
of sales for a long time, charged both
of them with um forced labor conspiracy,
which is like a I won't get into the
details, but it's a specific federal
crime that suggests that you conspired
to obtain labor unlawfully from people
um either through things like threats of
serious harm or serious harm. And then
there were like, you know, 2 years of
pre-trial motions, which is like pretty
common. And then it finally led to a
criminal trial this summer in Brooklyn,
which I came out and and covered in
person. And that was like five or six
weeks. And at the end of that trial, you
know, a jury unanimously decided to um
convict Nicole and Rachel of this crime.
And so the the two of them are in a jail
in Brooklyn awaiting sentencing, which
could could come later this year or
early next. and they could face up to 20
years in federal prison.
>> Okay, so now here's like the core
question, right? Um, Silicon Valley, of
course, like we've talked about, has
this this philosophy of being a place of
of agency of, you know, you you go out
and change your circumstances. Um, and
you know, you don't let stuff be
dictated to you. You could just do
things. M
>> how does a place like that um have this
fall into a situation or how do people
who who believe that fall into a
situation like this? Well, it's
interesting because the idea of agency
showed up in one taste in this
particular form, which was that Nicole
and other leaders of the group would
share this philosophy that basically,
yeah, you were 100% 100% responsible for
your experience, your life. And the flip
side of that is they would also say that
to have a victim mentality was um
kind of like looked down upon. And it
was like that was a that was um kind of
like a critique that you give you could
give of someone like, "Oh, you're having
such a victim mentality about that.
That's really small-minded of you." And
what's interesting
is that that philosophy of having
radical responsibility for your life is
often for many people quite helpful.
It's going to it's going to help you
take charge of your life. Like I think
there's a lot of benefit to that belief.
And at the same time in certain
circumstances within one taste many
people told me that they thought that
that was taken too far. Right? And so
in one taste as in life more broadly
you can have a good idea that is good
for a long time and then if you take it
to an extreme it starts to become
harmful. And so in many cases there were
people at one taste who were so taught
this idea that you could never be a
victim and and that to to see yourself
as a victim was so shameful that when
they experienced what they would now
call serious exploitation, they had a
hard time even calling it that. Like
they would have a hard time recognizing
that maybe they had been hurt. Um, and
so I think that the idea of radical
agency or radical responsibility was
used as a cover,
>> you know, to to make people think like,
oh, well, if I'm having a hard time, it
must be like my fault,
>> right?
>> I couldn't possibly blame someone else.
I mean, it's it sort of sounds like pe
these pe the people, you know, I've
lived in in I mean, I'm using Silicon
Valley as a broader term for San
Francisco and and the um the valley
itself, but um when you're out there, it
it seems like a lot of people just want
to believe in something, right? You're
there to do something. You want to
believe in something. And so once you
get going it and you believe you have
agency, it's tough to stop.
>> Totally. And and it also
once you've dedicated a lot of your life
toward a belief
to change your mind and say actually
that belief might have been misguided or
it shouldn't have been implied in the
circumstance. There is a lot of
cognitive dissonance or sunk cost that
comes up in a situation like that where
like there were lots of people at one
taste who had tough experiences and they
had a moment where they could have
thought to themselves actually [ __ ] this
place like I don't want you know this
place is is hurting me but in order to
say that they would have to had they
would have had to grapple with the
cognitive dissonance of like well I also
had invested five or six years of my
life into this group. It's a really hard
thing to admit to yourself and also sunk
cost. It's like I've already dedicated
so much time, time, money, energy,
social connection in this group. Like to
leave it feels very costly, feels very
painful. Um and so you're totally right
that like ideology has this stickiness
to it which is the more that you orient
your life around a belief if it becomes
part of your public or professional
persona you know if you are like yeah
the startup founder who is fighting for
you know XYZ
the more you put yourself in that
direction the costlier it is for you to
change course
>> right and I'm just like jumping out of
my seat here because um well First
caveats cuz it's important to caveat
here. Not everybody in one taste or
everyone who practices orgasmic
meditation is in tech. Like there are
people in San Francisco who don't work
in tech, believe it or not. Um but but
it's there there's so many parallels um
to this pursuit of AGI
>> where like you want to believe in
something and and for the record and
I've said this on the show a lot of
times but
>> AI is it's a real technology, right? But
but there is this sort of
maybe parallel like belief they put you
uh much of the tech industry has put a
lot of money and effort and faith into
this idea that um within a couple years
the current AI technology will turn into
uh artificial general intelligence or
super intelligence and
>> and it's tough to say you know it's very
tough for people involved in that
>> to say, "hm, maybe not." And I wonder if
there's
>> Oops. Maybe we were
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> And I and I wonder if there's there's
the chance of a similar group think
situation in that scenario.
>> Well, I totally agree that there are
strong psychological parallels here. And
one of the places that I saw that come
up in my own reporting was like when I
was writing about
the intersection between like AI safety,
the rationalists and effective altruism
in this this sense of, you know, you
might call it like dumerism, which I
know has gone up and down in its
popularity over the last couple years,
but
>> if you think about what AI dumerism felt
like maybe a year or two ago,
it is it is really obvious vious to me
that there are some parallels. And in
fact, like when I I wrote a big story
about this a couple years ago, and when
I spoke to some people who had spent
time really deep in the like doomer
mindset, they described it to me in
their own words as a cult. They said
like, "Oh, it has a lot of parallels to
a doomsday cult." And think about it
this way. It's like an ideology that
tells you in this case that
humanity as we know it is going to
either be um destroyed or you know
significantly crushed within 5 to 10
years and like our life as we think
about it, the world as we know about it
is going to change dramatically. And one
of the hallmarks of a cult is
like an ideology that is sort of
overarching that that tends to um once
you adopted it tends to affect like many
parts of your life rather than just one.
And then this kind of natural isolation
that ends up happening between you and
your previous relationships in part
because of like adherence to this
ideology or because of the social
culture of the group. And so people
described to me, you know, if you really
truly in your heart of hearts bought
into the idea that AGI was going to like
lead to the destruction of humanity in a
short time frame, not only is this a
belief system that affects every part of
your life, like this affected where they
thought they should spend their time and
energy, um their professional work, uh
who they should spend time with, what
they should spend their time emotionally
caring about, choices about like whether
they should think about the future,
raising a family, saving for retirement.
Um, they also described to me this
natural sense of, well, I just couldn't
talk to my old friends anymore who who
didn't worry about AI safety because
what kind of conversation you're going
to have with someone who doesn't agree
that the world is going to end soon. Um,
and so it did create this like sense of
isolation and insularness. Um, and yeah,
people who are like in that world, it
tended to be like, oh yeah, you would go
and like work at MIRI or you'd like work
in work in AI safety. It was just it was
impressive to me how much of an
overwhelming viewpoint it can be like
once you once you believe this many many
things in your life change
>> and it's kind of interesting you're
going to the doomer side which totally
makes sense on that front and you know
can the same be said for those who are
true believers and AJ I mean if you
think about it like I mean we Silicon
Valley of course is a place where they
make big bets on things that are
uncertain
>> uh but this belief that that AGI is
going to be reached uh has led to many
hundreds of billions of dollars being I
mean of course AI will be a useful
technology even if AGI isn't reached but
>> um the money is there because there is a
belief that it's going to get there. So,
do you see that parallel on the um sort
of the the non-doomer? But
>> and I think keeping in mind that another
really really important and sometimes
underestimated aspect of a cult is that
>> being part of a cult gives you access to
a sense of awe and wonder. And one of
the characteristics is also this sense
that you have discovered or have access
to special knowledge that not everyone
else has realized yet. that you're kind
of like an early
>> understander of something really big and
that it gives you access to
>> sounds familiar
>> and that it gives you access to this
sense of on wonder. So again to draw
these sort of odd parallels within one
taste the access of a wonder and the
sense of special knowledge like these
people truly believed that orgasmic
meditation was going to heal the world
that that teaching people this
connection practice was going to you
know fix our you know fix loneliness
make people's lives more like vitalizing
like improve people's sex lives and like
really just generally like uplift
humanity um which is not out of
character for the 2010s. remember we
works whole like elevate the world's
consciousness thing like this was all
>> yeah you're a real estate company come
on right
>> yeah yeah this was all happening in the
same suit but but and then the sense of
on wonder was like they really believe
that this was a spiritual practice that
gave them access to like transcendence
>> so setting aside obviously that's like
an unusual example but you can see some
of the parallels even in the doomers but
yes also in these sort of like AI
>> true believers
>> true believers
>> this idea that like AGI I mean people
speak about it with this sense of
quasi divine wonder like and and and
that's true whether you think of it as
this like ros basilisk this kind of
thing that's going to like destroy all
of us or this thing that's going to like
radically transform every part of life
or like replace humanity or like even
like supersede us as a new species like
that sense of awe and wonder is there
and then of course you even laughed in
recognition when I said it that feeling
again a hallmark of a cult this sense of
like I am among the few to realize
something really special that is it
gives you a sense of me like mission and
purpose which is again another key
quality this feeling of like I'm working
on something that really really matters
like even when I was talking to some of
these AI doomers they used phrases like
I felt cosmically significant you know
this feeling that the next 10 years
could radically alter the trajectory of
humanity which again
is is like depending on which corners of
Silicon Valley you're poking around in
could be poking around in could be quite
a commonly held belief um that infuses
people with a sense of mission and
purpose um which at our core human
hearts is something that we all want
>> right all right I got to take a break
but I want to come back and speak to you
a little bit more about this uh we'll be
back right after this and we're back
here on big technology podcast with
Ellen u features writer and Bloomberg
News. I'll show you the spine if you're
watching on video. Author of
>> because you ripped off the cover of
orgasm. I'm sorry for doing that, Ellen.
It was not personal.
>> It's totally okay.
>> But again, didn't want to
>> just a little juicy for
>> home life. Well, for the parents.
>> Understood.
>> Uh if they're listening, uh guys, I hope
you turned it off a half hour ago.
>> Um anyway, book is Empire of Orgasm, Sex
Power, and The Downfall of a Willness
Cult. Uh so let's just go back to the
main question I asked at the beginning
of this
>> uh of this episode. If Silicon Valley is
a place, how does how does Silicon
Valley exist both as a place that uh is
a fountain of original thinking and also
a place where sort of susceptible to
group think?
>> I mean I feel like people have had this
discussion a lot like often group think
like is is a critique of you know the
investing world or like dec you know
trends and stuff in in Silicon Valley. I
think I think the truth is both of these
things can exist at the same time. Um,
but the group think is
I do think it's an outcropping of this
of this ideology like of course humans
everywhere want to have an ide ideology
and something to believe in. But I do
think in Silicon Valley it's like
heightened. And so this idea that you
might be driven by an ideology or a
belief is socially rewarded here um in a
way that then makes people like be more
ideology-minded.
And when you have a strong belief, it is
tempting to then cluster with other
people who might share that or to feel
like, oh, if I adopt this belief, I
become part of a community. Like I don't
I definitely don't want to underestimate
how much
the sense of wanting to belong to
something is part of is part of this.
Like humans want to belong. Humans feel
like they want to have mission and
purpose. Um they want to feel agency
over their lives. And like adopting an
ideology that is shared with other
people in your immediate network is a
great way to feel shared mission and
purpose and to feel like you belong. So
like if you're an AI researcher and
you're like unsure of where exactly you
want to like
throw your ideological weight like you
might end up believing something that
you know you were open to in the
beginning but it also happens to put you
then in a community with people that you
feel connected to that you feel like you
belong to like there is a social there's
a human social aspect of group think
>> right so you've done a lot of reporting
on open AI
Uh what's your like assessment of where
OpenAI stands in terms of like thinking
through this? Like is it a like a kind
of a group think situation normal
company? Do they have the goods? Is it
just,
you know, them whipping us up into a
frenzy about this technology because
they made, you know, this really good
chatbot?
>> Yeah, very powerful chatbot, which we'll
get to. But I think I mean I think as
these companies have gotten bigger and
I'm sure you have your own sense of this
as well. So I'd be curious what you
think. You know Open AI 10 years ago or
I guess nine years ago. Open AI in its
very early years like was explicitly
formed around an ideology, right? And it
was meant to be this nonprofit with a
mission and the mission was what was
going to like differentiate it from
other groups. and and it and it did have
this very strong sense of like well
we're going to be open we're going to be
not for profofit and that is going to
shape the type of work we do
>> onto something early.
>> Yes. Onto something early. They were and
they were and like what's interesting to
me is that that is is has been watching
that ideological
vision
change over time in response to market
forces or other
you know I'd be curious what you think
are some of the things that have shaped
open AAI but I think indisputably
obviously it has drifted
in a very different direction than what
you might have you know to go back read
those stories about the founding of
OpenAI from like 9 years ago um is to
look at the company and be like whoa is
this really like how it started like I
think a lot of people who are not
familiar with the history would be
>> um
>> right but on the other hand they've
brought everybody along on this vision
>> what do you mean by everybody like
people at their company or people
outside
>> I would say the general public
>> oh totally I mean I think like in some
sense it's like well they've obviously
been very effective at transforming into
a like tech giant.
>> Yeah.
>> And in the process of doing so, like you
also need to grow your workforce
enormously. And so my guess is that the
like average person who joins OpenAI now
is like
>> thinking about it much more like, oh,
what was it like to join
>> Google in 2011 or something like that?
Like it's it's it's a very different
thing. And then what's interesting is
like it became different enough that
obviously Anthropic or like the original
founders of Anthropic decided like this
isn't going in a direction we like.
We're going to spin off and do something
that started off again with the real
glue and motivation being this ideology
that they were going to do things a
certain way.
>> And I think you know I know a little
less about like the up totheminute
nuance debate about like where is
anthropic now compared to like their
starting ideology.
If you zoom out, what's obviously
important here is that the ideology is
the powerful driving motivator at the
beginning of these companies, right? And
then it becomes a question of like how
does that ideology like morph and live
on or evolve as companies get bigger and
have to deal with bigger problems.
>> Yeah. and you've you've been like I'd
say one of the foremost chroniclers of
this this notion that
companies can sort of uh in in their uh
companies individuals in their belief in
this big idea can can sometimes be blind
to um you know some of the simplest
errors or simplest vulnerabilities that
might
>> take down the whole house of cards. here
is um uh one of my favorite stories that
I've read uh the first couple paragraphs
um that that you wrote uh along with a
co-author at Bloomberg. I wonder if
you'd know where this is going. One of
the most lavishly funded gadget startups
in Silicon Valley last year was Juicero.
It makes a juice machine. The product
was an unlikely pick for top technology
investors, but they were drawn to the
idea of an internet connected device
that transforms single serving packets
of chopped fruits and vegetables into a
refreshing and healthy beverage. Doug
Evans, the company's founder, would
compare himself with Steve Jobs in his
pursuit of juicing perfection. He
declared that his juice press wields
four tons of force, enough to le uh to
lift two Teslas. Uh, okay. But after the
product hit the market, some investors
were surprised to discover a much
cheaper alternative. You can squeeze the
juicer bags with your bare hands and get
the same juice out.
>> Yes.
>> I mean, isn't that characteristic of
this? Like the guy's calling himself
Steve Jobs. Believe in this bigger idea.
You're early to something which you have
to. And by the way, has been an ideology
that's led to many successful companies.
But on the other hand, it's always the
other side of this. It's like you never
really if you're so caught up in that
>> Yeah.
>> belief, you you just you can miss
things.
>> Well, in some sense, what Doug Evans is
doing here is is paying homage to the
power of like a really strong motivating
idea, right? like on some level at the
time that he was pitching Juicero, he
recognized that to make this idea of the
juice press feel
exciting
like you've discovered, you know, some
some special secret that you have a
mission and a purpose.
One of the ways to do that was to not
just pitch it as like, oh, we have like
a juice press, but to say this is like a
marvel of engineering with enough force
to lift two Teslas and to connect it to
Tesla to um Steve Jobs to make it part
of this like tech mythology
is a really powerful thing. Like stories
are powerful. Like stories are
essentially what you know what have spun
off so many of these companies. this
belief that like oh we need you know the
story of open AAI at the beginning is
like we need to
build a you know a research lab that's
going to do this particular function
with these particular lack of financial
incentives in order to like save
humanity right like what a story
>> you can just do things
>> you can just do things and especially if
you're going to do it to save humanity
>> through juice
I mean yeah the juicer story is like
look rarely have I ever written a story
that could be really summed up in one
sentence and and completely, you know,
it was like they built this juice
machine to squeeze the juice packs
>> and you could just do it with your
hands. Um,
>> you had this video where you were
squeezing me. Oh my goodness.
>> Squeezing the bag. We can, you know, you
can throw up a little overlay if you
want, but the,
>> you know, so rarely is it that simple.
Like part of part of what makes Juicero
an enduring
>> fable
of Silicon Valley is that it is so
neatly encapsulated in the idea that you
can just squeeze it with your hands. Um,
usually it's a lot more complicated than
that. Um, but you're right that I do
think it speaks to this
the potential pitfall of
story. It's like everyone recognizes how
powerful narrative is in rallying
investment employees
uh like the narrative of your company
and even more so if it can tap into
these again these human desires of like
I want to feel like I'm on a mission
purposeful working together with people
towards something of greater importance
than myself. Um feeling like yeah part
of a group that has discovered something
new.
um
like that is how powerful a story is and
that that sometimes it's so powerful it
can mask something really um hollow
>> at the center of a company.
>> Yeah. No, I so this is why I wanted to
do this episode. A because uh I think
your work is fascinating and b because
we are in this moment where a lot of
this AI story is being driven by
narrative. Um, and there's nuance there.
And I think folks should understand
where where these narratives come from
and what the root of a lot of what we
see come from Silicon Valley is is
really sourced. And it's not all in the
areas we spoke about today like the
houses and but but the power of belief
and the type of person that gravitates
>> to Silicon Valley. You've seen it. I've
seen it. Um, certainly worth paying
attention to. And yet amid it all, it
works for the most part.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean a lot of uh I'm
going to say this generally about cults
but a lot of cults I mean every
successful cult has at its center
like a significant amount of wisdom
because
otherwise the teachings would never like
get off the ground. And you know a lot
of the like successful companies even if
they might lean heavily on like
mythologizing their story like they
would never get that far if they didn't
have something extremely valuable also
to offer. So it's often that
combination. It's like you have to have
something
of value and to have a story around it
that is like deeply psychologically
motivating to people. Like that is the
combination that that can take you
really far.
>> Definitely. Well, Ellen, you know, this
is my third podcast. The first one was
called On the Program. It lasted for
like six episodes.
>> Uh the second one was called Delete Your
Account, and you are actually a guest on
Delete Your Account, the Micropod.
>> Um but it's lovely to have you here.
Thanks so much for having technology,
the real the real thing. And um we hope
to have you back.
>> Thank you.
>> All right. Thank you, Alan. Thank you
everybody for listening and watching.
We'll be back on Friday to break down
the week's news. Until then, we'll see
you next time on Big Technology Podcast.