Neuralink's First Patient Controls Computers With His Mind — With Noland Arbaugh

Channel: Alex Kantrowitz

Published at: 2024-12-18

YouTube video id: Xlv4biIY6JI

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xlv4biIY6JI

this is Nolan arba that's him
controlling a computer with nothing but
his mind and yes he kicked my butt going
head-to-head in a video game arba is the
first neuralink patient meaning Elon
musk's brain computer interface company
inserted a device into his motor cortex
that's allowed him to finally freely
operate a computer for the first time
since getting paralyzed 8 years ago noan
and I spoke about it all in a special
edition of big technology podcast face
to face in isuma Arizona kitchen here's
our
conversation Nolan welcome to the show
thanks man thanks for having me thanks
for having me here at your home I'm so
grateful to be here and so excited to
speak with you yeah absolutely anytime
everyone's welcome okay so you're the
first neuralink patient um just to
introduce what that means you have a
device on the back of your head uh that
has about 60 threads that have been
implanted into your brain and you can
control computers with your mind via the
signals coming through that device is
that the gist of it yeah so the implant
is on the top of my head um in the
implant in the motor cortex on the left
side of my brain um so it's kind of like
right on top just off center to the left
um there are 64 threads with 16
electrodes on each thread uh totaling
1,24 electrodes in all and they are
implanted in the part of my motor cortex
specifically correlated to right- hand
movement because I did what's called an
fmri a functional MRI that showed my
right hand movement is the strongest um
signal that was received with like all
of my body parts so they implanted it in
that side of my brain and um with those
electrodes they pick up neuron spikes
neuron signals and through an app on a
computer right now
called the link app it translates to um
cursor control so that Mouse moving
around your computer yeah it's not about
it's not the eyes it's not fingers it's
legitimately you think it in one place
and it goes yes amazing it's it's pretty
cool yeah so for our audience we're
going to get into that in a bit but I
first want to get a chance for everybody
to learn about you and to know you sure
so let's just talk about the way that
you ended up in this position your
injury yeah yeah so when I was 22 years
old uh it was right after my senior year
at Texas A&M I was working at a summer
camp in the Pocono Mountains called
Island Lake Camp it was our first day
off and a group of us went to a man-made
lake in Binghamton New York um I think
the lake is called Binghamton Lake there
is a beach that was built that goes into
the water um and for all of you who are
wondering it's a sectioned off like
cordoned off part of the water that's
been there for probably decades uh so
there's nothing in the water people
always say like oh maybe there was a
piece of a dock in the water in the lake
or there was something floating around
it's not the case um I didn't dive in
and hit my head on the bottom of the
lake or anything I just ran into the
water with a couple of guys we all ran
in together we saw some girls in the
water that were our friends who weren't
really getting themselves wet um they
had like glasses on and their hair was
dry so we thought it would be hilarious
to run in and pick them up and dunk them
in the water
um three of us ran in together and I got
hit in the side of the head at some
point um as we were getting into the
water and um right on the left side of
my head it dislocated my C4 C5 popped
out of place and back into place to
vertebrae yes um almost
instantaneously and uh I woke up face
down in the water and then what happened
yeah so I woke up and I realized I
couldn't move I tried move Mo and
nothing happened so immediately I
realized okay well I'm paralyzed um held
my breath hoping that maybe someone
would notice and come like pick me up
come flip me over come rescue me in a
way and no one did so I held my breath
as long as I could
maybe 15 seconds it felt like forever
but it might have been like 10 15
seconds and I couldn't hold my breath
any longer so I decided might as well
take a big drink and whatever happens
happens and then for the the next hour I
was sort of in and out um In and Out Of
Consciousness really yes um I saw some
things uh most of it was me just
unconscious woke up when they pulled me
out of the water on the beach uh woke up
again when an ambulance came and I was
talking to a paramedic woke up again
when they were transferring me to a
helicopter and then woke up again in the
hospital right before they took me into
surgery with a girl I had brought from
Texas A&M standing over me just balling
and I was trying to comfort her I was
saying look everything's going to be
fine look I'm all right things like that
I cracked some jokes I don't remember
what I said trying to get her to laugh
and
stuff and I had a nurse standing next to
me kind of telling me what was going on
what they were about to do and she had
called my mom and I was like don't tell
my mom like it'll just stress her out
let me go through surgery and then you
guys can tell her what happened and that
was it and then you woke up yeah I was
kind of um out of it for a while they
had me on like Fenton all three
different ways and like some Adavan and
stuff I like to tell people it was
awesome I never felt better uh I saw
some crazy stuff um woke up uh just like
randomly and just hallucinated crazy
things in my room so that was a lot of
fun I felt great um but then you know
the next couple weeks were uh pretty
rough lots of pain lots of nerve pain um
just getting used to not being able to
move it was uh it was not fun so what
can you feel and what can't you I I so
since I'm a C4 C5 anything below my
shoulders um maybe like a couple inches
below my shoulders I can't feel or move
so no sensation no movement um I did
gain back a little bit of movement and
like my arm my hand just like a tiny bit
just to do that something like that move
like left and right it's not much um but
that's about it it's a little bit little
bit of like uh bicep Flex um and that's
about it there's no feeling down there
no movement is it numb or just
non-existent it just doesn't exist wow
um yeah so um being paralyzed is weird
um like I can see my body I can feel
myself trying to move and then I just
watch nothing happen so it's odd um it's
something you have to get used to um it
feels like Phantom limbs sometimes where
I feel if I close my eyes and start you
know like trying to move my body it
seems like my body's moving and then I
open my eyes and nothing's happening
um yeah and I have no sensation so I
have to be very careful about like
things that happen to my body or what
position I'm in for how long because I
can get um pressure sores and things uh
very easily and I um can hurt myself
very easily so it's just a matter of uh
taking care of my body and I think I've
managed pretty well with the help of my
family now you're controlling computers
with your mind so yeah when did nurlink
come into the picture for you um a
little over a year ago my buddy called
me up um just randomly drunk on a
Wednesday at 11:00 a.m. as one does as
one does and he was like hey you want to
get a chip in your brain I was like sure
why not I got nothing going on um so he
kind of you legitimately agreed to it on
that first call yes 100% like within
within a couple minutes um and your
friend is persuasive yeah my buddy or
you're daring yeah yeah yeah so my buddy
Greg Bane um is like really big into the
Elon sphere he got drunk and was
Googling SpaceX one day and the human
trials popped up on his computer and
immediately he thought of me he worked
in a spanac cord lab after college he's
a biom major and um I think part of it
was because of me and my injury that he
worked in that lab and so he's always
thinking about me he's always been a
huge help to me and my family so he
called me up and said you know let's do
this and I was like yeah sure like why
not he like ran me through what
neuralink was and I was like that sounds
pretty cool no I love that your friend
calls you and says Elon Musk wants to
put a chip in your brain and you said
yep yeah I mean why not like like the
dude's done so many amazing things my
thought had always been he's not going
to put this in a human until it's ready
I feel like he's very Pro humanity and
he's not just going to be you know
shooting from from the hip with this
stuff and hurting people um left and
right just for progress I never thought
you would do that so when I heard that
human trials had opened up through my
buddy Bane I knew that he was ready and
I had complete faith in the company um
what they were doing uh it sounded
really cool so he applied um with me
over the phone it's kind of a
interesting juxtaposition because I
couldn't apply on my own before like it
would have probably taken me an hour to
apply online if it worked at all um with
that Mac OS control now I could probably
do it in you know a few minutes um with
the neuralink it's pretty interesting so
he applied helped apply uh with me over
the phone uh he would like ask questions
and I would answer tell them what to put
they were like um like what do you want
from neuralink like what do you want to
get from this and I was like an Iron Man
suit I'm just kind of like joking around
just like I didn't think I was gonna get
this I thought that it was like the
longest of shots because there was
nothing really spectacular about me I
feel like I didn't do anything with um
my accident like I didn't accomplish
anything in seven years it's like
there's no way that they would pick
someone like me um so I was kind of
joking around on my application not
taking it very seriously then you got a
phone call then I got an email that was
like like a day later they said oh uh
we're inviting you to apply they sent me
a link with you know like 20 different
time slots and my first thought was you
know I know I'm not very memorable so
the least I can do is select the very
first time slot on everything they send
me and at least they will remember U me
for being the first I'm being the first
person to you know be interviewed and
stuff and so what was the interview like
um the initial one the very very first
one was basically just a screening like
hey what's your name how old are you
like date of birth um are you paralyzed
like are you are you actually paralyzed
and stuff um just to make sure that I
wasn't some like Rando I guess just like
applying like uh I'm just a normal guy
actually I just really want the nurlink
um so that was the first interview the
next interviews started going into
things like my medical history um you
know like more in depth into my injury
and how I lived now where I lived things
like that um and then it progressively
kept becoming more
detailed um had like calls with surgeons
uh had calls with uh psychiatrists to
make sure I wasn't a crazy person um and
then eventually like consent forms like
okay well if you do the study this is
what you're consenting to and things
like that and that all culminated
with a in-person day of testing at a
hospital where they did um body scans
brain scans blood tests urine tests a
real psych evaluation a memory
evaluation all sorts of things eight
hours of testing up in Phoenix at uh B
Neurological Institute
which uh went pretty well okay and at
this point is it Dawning on you that oh
there's a real chance that I might get
brain surgery to implant a digital
device in there yeah you know I kept my
expectations extremely level through
this whole process M uh they told me
constantly that if anything about my
injury about you know my medical history
didn't line up with exactly what they
were looking for with their criteria
then they um would say okay thank you
but we're going to go in a different
direction sort of thing um they were
always telling me that like every
interview like okay there's going to be
a 2hour interview if at any point um
what you say doesn't line up with what
we want then we'll say sorry I was like
yeah that's fine so I kept my
expectations extremely level everyone
around me didn't um my buddy Bane called
every day he's like
holy you know like yeah like you made it
through another one you got another
interview you got another interview so
it's starting to feel real yeah I I
think the day I went up and got all the
testing in
Phoenix was when it all became like very
very real to me so they said okay you're
in and then gave you some options about
when exactly you might
be able to do this so after my day of
testing it was still another month
before they told me I was even selected
as one of the participants and then
another month after that when they told
me I was the first yeah because here's
the thing like I I don't know if I'd
want to be the early adopter on this
like let somebody else get it in their
brain see if it works maybe get the more
improved device so I mean you're the
only person in the world knows about
that's gotten this there have been more
people that have gotten it since you but
you're the first yeah what made you say
okay you know let's let's make this work
couple things um it's always cool to be
the first at anything I mean I think
that's like pretty obvious I think
anyone given that opportunity would
probably do it um and the next was I
knew that I would feel absolutely
terrible and I would never forgive
myself if I passed it up and someone
else was hurt or injured um or had to go
through something terrible because I
decided to pass it up I knew that I
wouldn't ever want to do that so I
decided that if they gave me the
opportunity I would be number one and
they did and I did yeah cool so what was
surgery like what did they do to you
exactly in surgery yeah that's a great
question um who knows what they did I
was asleep um you're like all right full
trust in this process yeah they uh put
me under like anesthesia um the surgery
was supposed to last last between like 3
to 6 hours it lasted under two
everything went so perfectly um you know
like you can look up stuff about like
the needles and the cartridge uh for the
R1
robot which is the surgical robot that
actually took over from the human
surgeon insert the electrodes into your
brain yep um we call it Tiny Dancer I
like the name um yeah so the surgeon uh
made the incision drilled the hole in my
skull and then let the surgical robot
Tiny Dancer take over they had taken
brain scans um when I had done all of my
testing and they had mapped out where
each uh thread was going to go and they
said that when they took off the piece
of my skull they were just hoping and
praying that everything looked the same
that everything lined up and they said
it was absolutely perfect that they
didn't have to make any adjustments that
Tiny Dancer went straight to work and
and they brought like 20 needles um to
replace the needles because they didn't
know if it would be able to survive the
whole surgery or if it would like break
or anything of that sort um one needle
did it so it was incredible they said
that like everything went just about as
perfectly as it possibly could have and
uh they closed me up in like an hour and
54 minutes or something okay mhm so we
should talk a little bit about what this
device that they implanted in your brain
actually is yes so they take a piece
piece of your skull out if I've read
correctly yes take a piece of your skull
out insert the device and well insert
the threads so the robot puts these 64
threads into your motor cortex and each
of them has a set of electrodes on it so
you have a thousand plus electrodes that
are sensors that read the firing neurons
in your brain yeah um and then they
effectively plug it up with the device
so and then put the skin back over yes
and I think the amazing thing about this
is that the everything we do in our body
is electric so the electricity that's
running through your brain which is the
signals that your brain ascending to do
things that's picked up by the device
yes each of the 16 electrodes on the 64
threads um is placed near neurons in my
brain uh they tried to get the
electrodes um near a certain depth in my
brain which is where all of the movement
occur really um so they put the
electrodes up and down the thread just
to make sure that at least one or a
couple of the electrodes were close to
the depth that they needed it to be um
and they were picking up neurons firing
in my brain that control um motor
movement specifically to my right hand
all those signals are picked up in some
way and it's sent back to the app to the
link app and you can do some pretty cool
things with them so you wake up from
surgery and the first thing you do is
play a prank on your mother yeah this is
everyone's favorite part of the story I
think it's one of my favorite Parts can
can Mia do you want to come in here for
this all right we're going to bring in
Nolan's Mom hey everyone this is my mom
Mia um she's been my mom for 30 years hi
Alex um hi everybody yeah hi everybody
um she's great she's the only reason
that I've been able to make it this far
I mean we've I've I've heard so much
about your mom on some of the shows that
you've done and I think that it's time
for listeners and viewers to meet her
yeah yeah I mean she's great she also
said she wants to prank you back yeah
well she she'll have to try real hard um
I'm not as gullible I'm not as gullible
or naive as she is he doesn't have to be
it's GNA be so good it's okay we'll see
exactly but
um yeah so she she does everything with
me goes everywhere with me she's my like
full-time caregiver basically full-time
nurse um and so you know she's also a
little like gullible and so my my buddy
Bane and I he was
staying uh with us for like you know a
couple weeks before my surgery to help
out and we were just joking around like
man it would be so funny to do something
out of
surgery like come out of uh come out of
surgery and wake up from anesthesia and
like just play a little prank on people
so uh we
decided Bane Bane didn't think I would
do it he was like there's no way you do
that um I woke up from surgery and
everyone's standing around me and my mom
looked at me she was like hey honey like
how are you doing I just looked at her
and I was like who are you and she my
God she freaked out like tears started
flowing I didn't freak out what I did
was I was kind of a quiet like freaking
out cuz I was I just started C like
tears wed up in my eyes and I didn't
really know what to do my first thought
was I first looked at um his stepdad
David and I was like and then I wanted
to call a doctor like um excuse me
someone needs to get in here like he
does not know who I am and what's going
on what did you guys do that's kind of
the reaction and that's what I did and
then after I'm looking around looking
for help I look at him and his face and
he was like I'm just kidding kidding
like like she smirk smir like it was
that face I know and then I saw him
smile I was like I just had this look
and then he goes I'm just kidding I'm
like wait you know who I am and he was
like yes so no what did Nur link do to
my son you're like that is my son I I
saw it took it took like three seconds
and I saw like the panic in her eyes I
was like I can't I can't let this go on
much longer like it was a mean pranking
to begin with but I could have kept it
going for a while while and like watched
the Freak Out unfold but I was like Ah
that's too me I would have probably done
some not very nice things to doors and
it's probably why he didn't want toart
it went exactly to the place it should
have and not for I think so as well and
look I just wanted to bring the story
and because I think people should know
how amazing this family is and you know
it's one story but I think it gives you
a sense well all our competitiveness I'm
super competitive and I think my kids
have always through the years wanted to
get me somehow you know I play right
back so for parents out there you know
listening yeah it wasn't very nice at
the time but it is really funny because
he knew how to just bring calm to me and
be like Mom I'm okay this is who I am
and you know hindsight I was upset first
but then thinking about it it it was
pretty funny see there we go yes there
exactly an amazing family was the whole
reason is just to show her and everyone
around me that I was the same that
nothing had changed and that's the best
way to do it is to pull a prank I asked
them to do something with his brain but
they didn't do it they just kept it
exactly same guy yeah
like yeah I was like oh good job you got
but no I didn't get to do that well
thank you Mia thank you for coming in
thanks
Mom I love you you guys are awesome so I
woke up out of surgery but you're you
weren't the same person because you had
nlink and planted yeah I mean did
anything feel different no I've never
felt different this whole time I just
feel like the same person um but pulled
a little prank on my mom thought it was
hilarious can't believe I remembered it
because I was so drugged up on
anesthesia I was like there's no way I
remember to do this but it worked out
perfectly okay um and after that it was
you know Elon Musk came in into the
recover room into my hospital room like
after I was like recovering a bit I
think he came in probably like an couple
hours maybe after my surgery and I was
still a little groggy and he came in was
like hey good job finally made it here
it's good to see you good to meet you
things like how do you feel how's it
going things of that nature and um I
don't remember much but what I do
remember very vividly is how cool his
bomber jacket was it was a sweet bomber
jacket um the whole time in my mind I
was like don't talk about the bomber
jacket don't talk about the bomber
jacket cuz I did want to seem like a
freaking weirdo um but it worked out
okay got to meet him um kind of sort of
and then a little bit later the nerling
team came in and they watched it kind of
work for the first time okay so when you
say they watched it work talk a little
bit about how your brain signals started
showing up through the device yeah so
the first thing they did was came in and
woke the device up and when they heard
like the first ding for the first time
of it waking up everyone was was so
happy like there were just
like like size of relief like
exclamations like oh my gosh you know
it's amazing sort of thing everyone was
just so happy and then they connected it
to a tablet to show some brain signals
real time and they held the brain
signals in front of mine uh in know in
front of me and I was looking at like
eight different channels what would be
my channel is eight different electrodes
that were picking up neuron signals and
I got see real time my brain signals my
neuron spikes if you've seen the
neuralink symbol the neuralink logo it's
a um neuron Spike basically it's what
they look like it's almost like a
heartbeat monitor um like a heartbeat
sensor um it's just a little bit
different a little bit more erratic and
so they showed me like eight different
channels and I still remember so vividly
like the third box over on the top row
because it was four and four um I was
immediately you know when I saw the
signals I was like can I manipulate this
at all so I started like wiggling my
fingers and my toes and trying to move
and I saw um a very specific yellow
Spike when I moved like my right index
finger and this is doing it physically
or just thinking about it um physically
trying to move my finger I'm so like
attempting to move my finger and I saw
this big yellow Spike every time and I
was like oh that's cool and everyone was
like what like what are you doing and so
I told them I was like look at the third
box on the top right now and now and now
I was like that's my index finger and
everyone freaked out cu that that meant
the device could read what was going on
in your brain and eventually translate
that into something on Compu like real
time um incredibly effective honestly
for a few hours after my surgery and so
how do you how do you go from having
that experience of like okay I'm going
to try to move my finger it's going to
show up in one of these eight channels
to then being able to move things around
on a computer just thinking about them
it's it's calibration when you calibrate
anything calibrate a mouse calibrate a
controller a TV you have to basically
train it to do what you want it to do um
so with a cursor they will show a
visualization like an animation of a
cursor moving like right left up down
like diagonally and stuff and all I have
to do is follow it with an attempted
movement with my hand in some way um I
can like reach for it I can like move my
wrist in that direction I can move my
hand in that direction I can use my
whole arm I could use my feet or
anything just any body part I use my
right hand because that's where the um
strongest signals come from and you just
follow the cursor and then eventually
all of those times that you follow the
cursor all of those times that you've
followed kind of the White Rabbit if you
will
um the
link app the algorithm the machine
learning is taking those brain signals
and teaching this algorithm um
to associate those movements um with the
neurons that are firing when it's
happening and eventually you calibrate a
cursor and you get control of it okay
and so how long did it take you to start
being able to control computers using
that type of brain signal so for the
first 10 days they weren't allowed to
charge my implant because of safety
regulations they had to make sure that
it was safe in my brain first that it
kind of stabilized that the temperature
range was okay and so they weren't
allowed to charge at all because
charging like raises the temperature and
this is a safety study first so they
needed to make sure that everything was
good so every day for the first 10 days
um some nurlink guys would come over um
in the verbo that we were staying at
First near the hospital they'd come over
uh just two of them Bliss and near and
they would wake it up and we would work
for an hour tops and they would say okay
we used 11% that's it for today um and
we would do different tasks we would do
what we call Body mapping which is an
animation of a hand um like moving
different fingers in different ways
moving uh across the screen like a full
hand um like shrugging shoulders just
all sorts of different movements that
they wanted me to replicate to follow
and it gets kind of wild because I think
that when you're when you're using a
mouse or when you're moving you have to
first think and then move but the way
that you're working with the neuralink
the neuralink can track your intent even
before you even realize that it's
happening yeah so there's there's a lot
about the implant that I find absolutely
fascinating so first off let's um go
through like a couple terms uh you have
a tempted movement and imagine movement
attempted movement is literally me
attempting to move my hand pretty
self-explanatory you know if um the
cursor is going left I might try to move
my hand to the left that's me physically
attempting to move it even though
nothing's happening here all the signals
still work in my brain there's just a
disconnect in my spinal cord so they
don't get through but the neuralink is
picking up those signals so that's
attempted movement I'm physically trying
to move my hand my fingers my legs
whatever is uh in whatever Direction in
whatever motion to
um place that in some sort of you know
keystroke um like map it to a keystroke
map it to a directional control of a
cursor something of that nature um so
that's attempted movement and then we
have imagine movement imagine movement
is basically the same except you don't
physically try to move a body part you
just think about either moving the body
part or you just think of moving a
cursor or doing an action that you want
the cursor to perform so you just think
like cursor move to the right left up
down you think cursor left click cursor
right cick click um and you do these
things all just by thinking and so
there's a difference this has been like
BCI brain computer interface uh
terminology for a while this is not
something that we've come up with so um
you take those things and and eventually
you get you know some really really
interesting outcomes with um the
algorithm and the implant learning your
intention when you go to move um you
don't think you know move hand here you
just move your hand wherever you want it
to go you don't think grab this you just
do it and you grab before you physically
move the signal from your brain has to
go all the way down and all the way back
up it shoots down to your hand saying
move hand this way all the way back up
to your brain and then the action
happens the same goes for me as I'm
trying to attempt to move or I'm
imagining
moving and so the implant the algorithm
can anticipate what you're doing just
like your body is firing that signal
before you even move so sometimes when I
want to say click or I want to move the
implant
will understand my intent and move
before I even decide to move basically
it's uh pretty incredible that's crazy
uh it is it it is crazy it really is and
so I think that the implant is much more
capable than a lot of people um
understand it really really is
fascinating and you know I'm thinking
about video games and if you're playing
video games that's all coming through
your hands but if you're able to move
things on your computer first you could
probably just destroy anybody in any
game with this it's a superpower yeah
when I think of where this technology
will go it's pretty incredible I don't
believe it will be allowed in like
certain gaming um platforms and things
for like Major League Gaming I think
they're going to have to separate it
either everyone's going to have to have
one or you're going to have to
understand that other people have one
and just accept that um maybe it's
better or you're better maybe assume
like oh the nurlink doesn't add any sort
of Advantage so I'll play against it I
don't believe that's true I think
they're going to have to separate them
to their own League or like ban them in
leagues or everyone's going to have to
have them um in order to be fair because
they really
are like you said a superpower when it
comes to video games um it's their
aimbots like you you turn turn around a
corner in a first-person shooter and
there's someone there your brain has to
send the signal to your hands and come
all the way back up in order for you to
move um the joysticks click buttons on
the
controller it doesn't have to do that
with a nurlink it's all happening sort
of instantaneously like pre-
instantaneously if it's learning your
intent in your mind and it's sending
that signal to a computer and back I'm
not sure what the um latency is but I
have a feeling it's less than whatever
you're doing with your hands with a
controller so it's going to be you know
a few millisecs um are life or death in
these sorts of games right so you're on
the life side yes yeah so um it's not
there yet but I know that when this
technology like really lands and fig out
yeah it's there there's no there's no
doubt in my mind that people will want
it in order to surp pass you know what
regulars are capable of I love that
you're just referring to folks as
regulars because it really is yeah it's
amazing what you're able to do so let me
just ask you this question it's a simple
question but I'm curious to hear your
answer I mean what does it feel like to
not be able to move your hand but to see
that movement expressed on a screen when
you think about it you know what's
interesting is for seven years s and a
half years I was trying to move my hand
and my
body to create new neural Pathways um to
hopefully regain some
movement I never knew if it was working
because there's no feedback um there's
no like feedback loop I try to move my
hand I try to move my feet I try to move
my legs my body in any way but I don't
know if it's working if what I'm trying
to do is actually
being propagated in my brain really I
don't know if trying to move my hand is
um you know the signals are actually
firing in my brain when I was able to
see my neurons firing for the first time
it really made me kind of emotional
thinking that you know when I move my
index finger there are still like neuron
spikes neurons firing in my brain it's
really just my spinal cord and I think
that should give a lot of people hope
honestly because like everything's still
working you just got to keep trying keep
trying and keep forcing your body with
Brute Force to relearn how to move yeah
I mean even though you don't have that
sensation back you do have it back in
some way it's it's weird it's a weird
like leap um psychological leap sort of
physical leap it's weird to
be able to move without moving be able
to move something without moving so you
use the nurlink app and that allows you
to control your cursor on the screen M
so once you got past the point of saying
okay I can do this what has that enabled
you to do that you couldn't do
before I mean so much um it's little
things that add up to really big things
being able to like I said earlier fill
out an application online um it's given
me a lot of Hope
and you know purpose and future Prospect
like
um ideas and ability like I might be
able to get a job I might be able to go
to school um I can you know we were just
talking about doing like video editing
if I want to do I can just interact with
the computer at a much much higher level
play video games just enjoy surfing the
web without um having to go through the
headache of like the Mac OS navigation
and things and you know it adds up to a
lot being able to send a text in a few
seconds instead of a text taking 5 10 15
minutes sometimes to craft because of
how bad dictation is I mean it's it's
terrible um there's so much that I'm
able to accomplish with the computer now
that I was never able to do before um or
that that would have taken way too long
if you think about if it takes 5 minutes
to send a text message to one person
imagine trying to keep up a conversation
with 10 people in a night um and sending
you know 50 to 100 texts to each person
it's just not possible with Mac OS
dictation if everything takes that long
with the nurlink it's way better I feel
like I've reconnected with my friends uh
with my family with you know the world
in general being able to communicate
with people online through social media
I I really have just blossomed into uh
social butterfly with all of this it's
interesting to me because the digital
world is so expensive and for you you
know being confined in the way that you
are physically it must have felt like a
release to just be all of a sudden able
to access and interact on the internet
the way that you are yeah it's very
ready player one like it's it's getting
close um
like I'm
not like virtually in a world yet but I
sort of am in a way I'm interacting with
people through a computer with the
neuralink from my bed as a quadriplegic
like any person could from you know
wherever they are in their lives and I
think that's amazing sometimes I forget
like I I forget that you know I'm even
paralyzed and that I'm um you know
restricted like you said in the way that
I am am because it's just so seamless
and I can't imagine what it's going to
do for the normals I've been calling
them when they um get this device and
are able to do what I'm able to do while
also physically going about their lives
people are going to have a lot of fun
with this and they're going to like play
with it and be like I don't understand
cuz I don't understand a lot we don't
understand the brain and I'm constantly
learning but people will be able to go
about their lives like do the dish is
while they're um doing stuff with their
neuralink and using their hands and um
playing with the neuralink or doing
whatever they're going to be able to
multitask at such a higher level and the
nurlink right now is capable of doing a
limited amount of tasks at once but I
don't know that there's an upper limit
to this um you can map kind of as many
things as you want to different actions
with the nuring you think of being able
to use you know both hands and both feet
at the same time it's pretty hard you
have to be pretty coordinated now
imagine both hands both feet all 10
fingers all 10 toes um shoulders arms
elbows knees like every body part that
you can imagine mapping to something
else and then that's all attempted
movement if you break that down even
farther to imagine movement it's
unlimited how much potential and how
many different tasks you'll be able to
um combine and do it once with neuralink
it's incredible I don't know where that
limit is what the Upward Bound is but
I'm positive that it's nowhere near
where we are now I know that it's going
to keep growing so you think normals as
you call them are going to want to use
it oh for sure absolutely what some
cases be um anything that anyone does on
a computer if they want to be more
productive if they want to be better at
video games if they want to just enjoy
using it and like elon's plan is
integrating with AI and integrating with
I'm about to ask you about that yeah
integrating with AI and um like the
virtual reality and basically every
device that you can think of that uses
Bluetooth you'll be able to control with
the nerling I constantly tell people
like you think things um like online are
Alexa compatible like you know I have a
Alexa compatible fan I have an Alexa
compatible um like Dyson I have a Alexa
compatible like lights and smart plugs
all of that you're going to be able to
do with a neuralink everything is going
to be nuring compatible one day and it's
so yeah like like let there be light you
know like everything is going to except
you don't have to say it exactly you
just think um and so one day I think
everything is going to be like neural
incompatible like like companies will
have to put that in their product in
order for it to sell um if it's not
nurly Inc compatible people be like well
why why are we even using this nink is
about to start testing a robotic arm um
and I would imagine given your
experience you think that if you want to
move an arm why wouldn't you be able to
if you could move a cursor on a screen
so what do you think about that and is
that something that you'd want to
participate in if given the chance yeah
I 100% want to participate in it I'm not
sure that I'll get the chance um I'm not
sure that neuralink wants um me to be a
part of all of that uh they might and if
they do I'm more than happy but there's
a chance that maybe the next
participants will have um better control
they'll be able to um control the robot
arm a little bit better I have you know
like much less threads and electrodes in
my brain because of the thread
retraction that happened about a month
after uh my surgery talk about what
happened there yeah yeah so basically
immediately after surgery uh and up to a
month a month and a half after surgery
threads were being pulled out of my
brain or just moving in my brain in
general when you say it pulled out it's
the brain that's actually moving and
spitting them out the the brain moved
much more than what nurlink anticipated
which kind of blew my mind honestly like
you would think that we're at a place in
human history and medicine that we would
know how much the brain moves but they
didn't we know so little about bra we
know so little about the brain which
shocked me they opened up my skull and
they the surgeons were like yeah that's
about right when you think about what
they they did they uh drove a hole in my
skull um and it's called a craniotomy
craniectomy it's one of the two I can't
remember which one one of them is
basically like you drill a hole and you
place something back over the hole um in
the skull and one of them you leave it
open but when they're drilling these
holes in these craniectomies they are
doing it to relieve pressure in the
brain and so the hole doesn't need to be
very big um my skull hole was really big
um I mean not like super big but big
enough to fit the quarter size implant
plus it's like base um in my skull so
bigger than a quarter um like a little
square piece is mounted to my skull so
when they cut the hole in my skull um
they were able to see the
brain on a bigger scale than they're
used to um and the surgeons were like
yeah that makes sense but the brain
pulsed with my heart uh they said at a
rate of three times times as much as
they thought wow they thought that the
brain moved like a millimeter when it
pulsed and mine was moving 3 millim
every time it pulsed so when they
implanted the threads um they didn't
anticipate that and they also didn't
anticipate a couple of other factors
which they changed for P2 um which
ultimately led to thread retraction in
my brain and they fixed it for P2 so
that's one thing that happened to me
that's pretty terrible it was awful it
was a terrible experience a month in
they basically told me that you have
thread retraction and I was losing
control of a cursor I was not able to
control the cursor anymore at that point
and so I thought I was just out of the
study but they figured it out they
figured it out um on the software side
instead of registering sort of like
single neuron spikes they were
registering groups of neurons and um so
it was really hard though when they told
me it was the day that I was going to
visit the nerling facility in Fremont
was the morning before and they told me
I had the thread of traction they wanted
to be as transparent as possible with me
um which they have been through this
entire study and I thought I was out of
the study I thought it was over I got to
play with it for a month and not even
see the peak of the mountain I just got
a little bit of a taste and it was
really really hard I like cried in my
van on the way to the the nuring
facility I was like this sucks it's
awful um I wasn't expecting this at all
and eventually I was just like I'm here
to do my part I'm here so that these
things happen to me and not the people
that come after me I'm here to do
whatever I can to help this product to
help neuralink and so that's what I did
and I it's unbelievable attitude it was
hard to get there it's not easy it's not
like a a flip well a switch is flipped
um it it's it's something that I have
to work through in my mind and come come
to a decision that I can be sad about
this or I can do my part and just focus
on my purpose and understand why I'm
really here and what it's going to do
for the future and that makes things a
lot
easier so yeah the threat of retraction
happened um so I don't know if um with
my threat retraction cuz I have they
said 15% of the electrodes are still in
place with my brain plus or minus 10% so
it could be as little as 5% still
working with
still work that's unbelievable it's it's
one of the greatest pieces of this story
I think that is hardly ever told is that
I'm able to do what I'm able to do with
a fraction of the electrodes that were
originally intended and that is
unbelievable um they change the way that
they are registering the neurons um the
neuron spikes um and they knew about it
they knew about it with the monkeys but
they said that it wasn't as good that
they really shouldn't use that type of
um um neuron Spike detection but then in
the humans it worked out way better and
I asked them one day I was like so why
didn't you guys do this from the
beginning and they just said we didn't
know like this is what this study is for
all learning together yeah like this is
what the study is for so um with my
limited uh electrodes in my brain and
I'm you know with the control that I
have of the cursor and my clicks and
things I'm not sure they're as good as
like P2 or anyone that's going to come
after they might have better control
because they solved the issue with P2
there was no threat of traction in Alex
and him Alex is the second patient Alex
is the second patient so you've met the
second patient I haven't um I don't know
that he wants to meet me oh is he not
he's not going public I I don't think so
I I haven't heard a peep from him um
I've mentioned that it's fine if he
wants to meet me but if not it's his
prerogative and how many nerling
patients are there at this point just
two uh at least one more so three I
don't know okay uh yeah so
um it's it's not clear to me if I will
get a robot arm um uh if they do want to
give it to me what yeah super cool if
they if they did I have some really fun
plans if they do give it to me um I
don't want to tell uh I think it'll be
really cool if they do I'm not sure that
what I want to do is strictly legal but
we'll find out I got to come back to
yumo when this yeah um so yeah I think
if they give me a robot arm people are
going to be terrified wait are you going
to shoot guns with a robot arm I don't
want to say what I'm going to do but uh
let's let's just say it'll be really
cool if they give it to me um and I
might I might um ask for forgiveness
instead of permission okay let's go with
that um and so I don't know we'll see
we'll see I I have no idea if they'll
give me one I hope they do me too so uh
just I want to take a moment to say we
have some uh new listeners and viewers
here on the feed and I want to introduce
you all to the show it's big technology
podcast we do this once a week a big
interview like this and then we break
down the news on Fridays uh with analyst
Ronan Roy of uh he's of margins which is
a substack newsletter so thank you all
for being here uh please hit subscribe
if you like what you're hearing and I
welcome you one way or the other and
Nolan thank you again for being here
with us yeah man absolutely anytime okay
thanks for having me so now I want to
get into the weird stuff cool um so
let's talk about first of all the
singularity one of the things that Elon
talked about with this is that neuralink
is a way to potentially protect humans
from AI or make humans more aligned with
AI because the AI might be bored with
how slow We type and if we can interact
with computers uh more quickly then we
can potentially uh sort of make peace
and our interest with artificial
intelligence better um now that you have
the device uh you know basically
implanted in you not even basically
implanted in you what do you think about
that idea sounds fun sounds really cool
um so I think that it's going to happen
I think that you know protecting us from
AI is an interesting way to put it I
think that it'll definitely increase
human capability at some point I'm not
sure how much the brain is something
that we don't understand so in my mind
you know we've worked with typing before
we've worked with typing where you know
I write a letter with a pencil and the
letter you know pops up like a keystroke
on the screen um I got to the point
where I didn't need to like physically
attempt to write the letter I could
think of sort of the key sort of the
hand stroke of the letter and it would
pop up and I think that you could take
that to its logical conclusion which is
if you can do that with a letter you can
do it with a word if you can do it with
a word you can do it with a sentence you
can do it with a sentence maybe you
could do it with whole strings of
sentences of code of um like complex
ideas I don't think we're anywhere near
where this thing is capable and um so I
believe you could like people who are
programmers coders could use this to
maximize efficiency in some way and like
you're saying being a type faster um be
able to keep up with some like AI stuff
it it's interesting because like the
brain itself is a super computer so like
what is our brain supercomputer capable
of with something like Nur link I think
it's much more than we're like than I've
even like scratched the surface of so
yeah I think it would be really cool
what do you think merging with AI could
look like and would you do it um yeah
I'd absolutely do it um first off you're
like whatever it is Count Me In yeah I
mean like technology is a tool
ultimately for humans to use right like
there is no such thing as an evil
technology just evil people with evil
intentions um technology is just a tool
for us to use and we can use it for good
we can use it for bad people will use it
for bad people will use it for good and
I think the Good Will far outweigh the
bad it's a lot like the internet no one
knew where the internet was going to go
and I think the internet has done more
for the world in the good sphere than it
has in the bad sphere there's always
going to the bad and there's nothing to
do about it with neuralink and Ai and
merging I believe that the good will far
away the bad again and we just need to
learn how to utilize that um technology
uh the capability
and you know I'm not really sure exactly
what it looks like it's almost like you
ask the people who first created the
internet what is the internet going to
look like in 10 15 years they might have
ideas but they would have never guessed
what it looked like you know 20 years
later or something so it's hard to
imagine what this thing will become okay
so your device can read your thoughts
right now yes it can read you know your
intentions
um do you think there's ever going to be
a point where this stuff gets so
implanted into our brains where
companies can write I mean in animals
for instance you can send certain
electrical signals and make them behave
a certain way is that a worry for people
I don't think it's
as sci-fi or far off as you might think
um so you're saying this is feasible
yeah I'm saying it's already happening
um when you think of blind sight that's
exactly what they're doing they're
sending signals into the visual cortex
and um letting blind people see like
that is writing on the brain um when you
are um you know
taking sort of what they're going to do
with quadriplegics or paralyzed people
putting an implant in the motor cortex
and one below the level of injury you're
reading um from the brain and then
writing sort of into the spinal cord but
you can do that with nurl links in the
brain as well I believe that the writing
is going to happen sometime soon um and
all of this comes with you know like
warning signs like flashing warning
lights like hey this could be used for
bad but I don't think that should stop
us I think that we need to continue
researching it and continue um in this
fear and hope that it is used for more
good um and then deal with the bad and
the consequences as we come it's a lot
like AI if you think of something like I
don't know AI art where the government
is just sort of like trying to play
catchup with how to regulate AI art and
what people are allowed to do and aren't
allowed to do um we'll get there um and
they'll they'll figure it out soon
enough enough um but there's this kind
of gray area this time when we don't
really know um I think the same is going
to happen with neuralink but I'm all for
it but what about like if if everybody's
walking around with nurlink and these
devices end up being able to write and
like cause humans to do things that
maybe they don't intend to do isn't that
like a pretty big vulnerability or yeah
I mean obviously
um when you're talking about things like
that it's it's definitely something that
people immediately jump to with like
sci-fi and being able to control people
thoughts control people's bodies their
movements all sorts of things it it goes
into um like the device is being
hackable um the device my device is
hackable you'd have to um find some way
in like through a Bluetooth signal and
you would be able to maybe control my
cursor on a screen to be able to um hack
my uh neuron spikes and the Brain
signals um and maybe like decode that to
see what I'm doing on a computer um but
you would just need to I would just need
to disconnect and you wouldn't be able
to do that anymore um I think that there
are a lot of safeguards in place nurlink
is very
very
um active with their um security they're
like cyber cyber security yeah they're
they're literally the smartest people
I've ever met in my life all of them
they're so impressive each one of them
could be at any big company making
probably millions of dollars but they
come to nurlink make much less and
that's not a knock on nerling it's just
you know it's it's the sphere that
they're in they make it much less but
they're making so much more of a
difference and they're the most
impressive people I've ever met um and
they are very very serious about their
security and what it would take to like
hack something like this think about
it's a device it's uh a computer
essentially any computer any device can
be hacked but um it's getting harder
uh to hack certain things we getting to
a place where I think cyber security is
getting um better but who knows and at
that point you have to you know figure
out how to mitigate that and I'm sure we
will I'm sure it's not going to be
something where we're making all these
devices implenting them in someone and
we're like oh yeah they're hackable and
all these people are going to be able to
be controlled and stuff I think before
anything like that happens we have to
prove that there's some sort of
Safeguard against these sorts of things
and what about the idea that we'd just
be able if we have neur links implanted
to like download stuff keep them like in
a neuralink file in our brain and then
sort of access it as we need so
effectively infinite memory yes that
would be awesome would be cool that
would be super cool um I think that
there is a lot of unknown with this what
we're going to be able to do with it
what is going to be capable of I'm down
for basically everything I think that
any sort of improvements or progress is
going to be a lot of fun and something
that humans will utilize to make extreme
change in the world um and I think it
it'll be for good honestly for good so
do you think we might end up with a you
know Collective human consciousness with
this where like you know these devices
can read my thoughts and maybe your
thoughts and then we can sort of merge
you know forget the AI what about humans
have you read the book Nexus no okay
it's very similar like there's the
borgan Star Trek Yeah Yeah so
basically Nexus is about like a computer
that runs in people's brains allows them
to connect to each other and experience
each other's thoughts emotions and goes
a bit deeper into like sex stuff and
things like that um and it gets you like
high in some ways and stuff um
Collective Consciousness is
interesting I'm not sure what this is
capable of if it gets to that point I
think that would be wild would to be
absolutely
incredible um I don't believe that it's
something that needs to be you know
feared I think you know it goes back to
like an
age-old
um problem of if you are afraid of
getting in trouble just don't do
anything wrong and the collective
Consciousness thing is if you are afraid
of what people might see in you well
then just be better um I don't think
that would happen I think that you would
probably end up getting people who are
kind of crazy and don't want to connect
with other people and like a collective
Consciousness but then you get into
things like Minority Report stuff and
all sorts of weird avenues that this can
go down um I don't know I I just think
I'm excited to see where the technology
goes and that's like way down the road
stuff that's like you know 50 60 70 80
90 100 years down the road stuff um
that's like future people problems let's
focus on this now you know but would you
do it oh for sure absolutely no then
your attitude is like all right any
experience you're I mean it's to me it
really is a technology that humans can
utilize not be afraid of right humans
are never going
to um how do I put this humans are going
to be no matter what um no matter what
this does humans will still have the
same problems Sol have the human
condition that will be good and evil and
so I don't believe this is going to
change that I just believe that we will
find a way to adapt it to ourselves to
our lives and to human progress and so
I'm not afraid of it I think it's
something that should be embraced and
then should be
um you know used to solve problems and
then we can find ways to you know
mitigate consequences and things along
the way should we get really out there
sure let's do it I mean what about this
I think it's a Joe Rogan idea of um
having these devices send signals to
your brain that like without having to
take drugs feel drugs uh do you think
that that's feasible and is that
something you'd want to
try I definitely think it's feasible
um I don't know that I would try think
like that some of it goes against like
my religious beliefs right um what I
like I don't really do like I don't
smoke weed or do like mushrooms or any
sort of other drugs anymore um I used to
but that was you know before I realized
that it didn't align with my like
beliefs um so there are things that I am
still opposed to but I know other people
won't be and I don't think um
necessarily that my place as like a
citizen of the United States to tell
them that they can't though I would tell
them as a Christian that it's probably
not the best for them um but I do think
it's possible it would be crazy to like
do heroin with without the possibility
to overdose but it be crazy change your
brain chemistry yeah it would be crazy
um I am not sure that that would be
something that would be allowed it might
be something like you know drugs are
regulated um in the United States maybe
something like this would be regulated
too like you're not allowed to do it um
and if you do then you can get in a lot
of trouble and I'm sure there will be
ways to find these things out so um yeah
I'm not sure I'm not sure where that
goes but there's a lot that you can do
with that you know drug trips um feeling
like different emotions if you're like
really sad you can just flip a switch
and be happy if you just want to be in
the feels you can make yourself really
sad you can experience maybe what it's
like to have sex um you can experience
what it's like to you know be I don't
know the happiest you've ever been in
your life you can experience all sorts
of a range of emotions and uh physical
Sensations um that I think people will
explore and who knows maybe it's just
not the same maybe you do it and it's
like yeah you get a quick hit but it's
not the same as actually physically you
know like interacting with the world and
maybe that's where we get people realize
that it's just an escape and you need to
go and touch grass you know yeah
definitely okay couple more questions
for you let's do it you're 30 yes so you
made a bet by working with neuralink
that neuralink is going to be around for
decades because this is permanently in
your body MH um talk a little bit about
did you think about that at all in terms
of if neuralink goes under then what am
I going to do about this because it is a
risk yeah I'm not too worried about
nerling going under um they have
probably the most funding of any sort of
company or um study maybe in the world
because of Elon Musk so I'm not too
worried about it um and I do know Elon
will probably I mean just looking at
timelines he'll probably be dead by the
when you still have the device in that's
true I I've seen different studies where
um certain like devices are left in
participants because the study goes
under and they lose funding um if that
happens it happens I mean I am not
afraid of this thing being in my mind uh
permanently um I have
seen the data and the study about ipping
and monkeys for long periods of time and
you know the stress testing that they do
to these devices to see how long they'll
last I think that I will die before the
neuralink chip does MHM okay you are so
optimistic I try how how have you uh
maintained and built this sense of
optimism because I don't think I don't
think everybody would be the same
way um a lot of it has to do with my
faith I believe that God has a plan and
a purpose for my life and
that keeps me going it helps me realize
that there's something bigger than me
that there's a bigger plan in the
universe that is you know
so much more Grand and so much more
important than anything that's happening
with me I believe that my accident
really did save me from a Salvation
standpoint I believe it's probably one
of the best things that ever happened to
me in a weird way because I think that
if I would have died that day or if you
know I would have not been injured at
all who knows like where I would be um I
definitely don't think that if I died
that day I would have gone to heaven I
definitely don't think that if I was
never injured that I would have ever
made my way back to Christianity and god
um I believe that I tell people when I
was pulled out of the water that day I
believe God pulled me from the fire um I
honestly truly believe that and then the
support system I have is one of the only
reasons that I've made it this far the
people around me my family and my
friends are you know the best in the
world I know everyone says that about
their family and their friends but I
honestly believe that that's true for me
and then it's just kind of who I am I'm
not a very stressed person stressful
person I just kind of roll with the
punches and I think you know well where
do I go from here you know a lot of
people always think about like how
they'll react in like high stress
situations and what I've learned about
myself is I am cool as a cucumber I just
don't I just don't freak out about
things I just accept it and move on and
just always how I've
been this is the last one we have a lot
of people that will be listening to this
show that work in the tech industry oh
cool and you basically uh made the
distinction with nurlink folks they
could be pulling a million dollar
salaries elsewhere they're working for
less and they're doing this work I think
this entire conversation has sort of
been a demonstration why folks who are
in the tech world you know if you want
to like I think make the most of your
working years try something like this
but I just like to hear your perspective
if you're speaking to the people who are
thinking should I do another year at
Instagram or should I think about doing
something like neuralink what would you
tell them I think that you need to think
about
what you're capable of and what your
purpose is in life and
what change you want to leave uh behind
in the world and what you want to affect
in the world and
where you think you can make the most
difference because it's not about making
money it's not about you know finding a
way
to get a nice house or get a nice car or
anything along those lines it really is
just about finding a way to help others
and doing everything you can to be
selfless and affect positive change in
the world and that's what people at
neuralink are doing that's what I'm
trying to do and I think if more people
did that then we would be in a much
better place and I know people say that
all the time if everyone just did you
know this or took like one less shower a
day or ate like one less meal a day we
would solve world hunger and things like
that um I honestly do think that if
people in the tech World paid a bit more
attention
to what is going on uh with things like
neuralink or different studies or
companies that are trying to help um are
trying
to push forward uh humanity and you know
what people are capable of and how we
can like help people in like my
situation or other terrible situations
um that they could really make a big
difference so I encourage people to look
at companies like neuralink and see like
what they're looking for and uh take a
pay cut but go make a difference and try
and you
know help be another little Cog that
pushes um you know the medical field
forward the tech field forward and
pushes positive um
experience for people like me um I don't
know I'm just so thankful to everyone
that does it and I think that should be
enough I think like looking these people
in neuralink in the eyes and saying I'm
so happy that you did this I I'm so
grateful I think that should be enough
and it's not about money you know
absolutely noan thank you so much for
sharing the story appreciate you being
here absolutely man thanks so much for
having me thank you for listening and
we'll see you next time on big
technology podcast see you