Apple After Tim Cook, OpenAI’s New Mojo, Meta’s Internal Tracking Escapade

Channel: Alex Kantrowitz

Published at: 2026-04-27

YouTube video id: XEp-xHzIvt0

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEp-xHzIvt0

What does Apple look like after Tim
Cook? We have a preview of new CEO John
Turnis' opportunity and challenges.
OpenAI seems to be getting its mojo back
and Meta employees are now part of a
weird AI tracking experiment. That's
coming up right after this. Welcome to
Big Technology Podcast Friday edition
where we break down the news in our
traditional coolheaded and nuanced
format. We have a great show for you
today. A lot to cover. We're going to
talk about what's ahead for incoming
Apple CEO John Turnis. We're also going
to talk about uh what seems to be an
improvement of messaging for OpenAI and
we'll also discuss Meta employees
getting their keystrokes tracked with
screenshots that may be training the
next generation of AI. So, a lot to
cover today and we are joined as always
by Ron John Roy of Margins. Ranjan,
great to see you. Should I be this
excited because this new Apple CEO John
Turnis is going to fix Siri? I am a
little bit excited this week and that's
all I'm thinking about. But we're going
to have to talk about this and that's
all that's the only thing I care about
about this monumental announcement.
>> So, when we were recording a podcast
this week, Joanna Stern and I um I had
the message come through mid podcast
that Turtis was going to be the new CEO
and Cook was stepping down. Um, and we
put it out there and some people were
just like, why are you focusing on the
AI, like stop focusing on on the AI
stuff. It doesn't matter. And I strongly
disagree with these people. I think it
does matter. And so does John Turnis.
And we're going to get into after this a
handful of products that he is expected
to release as CEO. So stay tuned for
that. Uh, but first, um, very
interesting challenge awaits him.
According to Mark German of Bloomberg,
German says Apple's new CEO will need to
stave off exodus of top talent. Uh after
years of relative calm, the company has
suffered a wave of recent departures
both among seuite executives and rank
and file engineers. It's up tois who
succeeds Tim Cook in September to
stabilize the workforce. I mean,
goodness gracious going through this uh
this story, there's so many people that
have left or considered leaving. Um,
Mike Rockwell, who created The Vision
Pro and is working on Siri, has
considered leaving. Um, he has
reservations about reporting to his new
boss, Craig Federi. By the way, Craig
Feder might not be happy that he didn't
get the CEO job. By the way, I told you
all I I'm pretty sure when Jeff Williams
left that, you know, supposed air parent
of Apple, uh, the COO when he left that
meant that Tim Cook was leaving and lo
and behold, that's what happened because
he wasn't the pick and was the pick. Um,
here's more from the story. Several
leaders including marketing chief uh
Greg uh Jasuak, retail head uh Dedra
O'Brien, Apple uh store head uh Apple
store head Phil Schiller, and service
leader Ed Q are approaching four decades
at the company. Um there's also a
Fortune article from December that shows
that there is like a whole heck of a lot
of turnover at the end of the year last
year. Interesting. I will ask you this.
Is it a challenge or an opportunity for
Turnis that the seemingly the entire,
you know, senior suite of Apple may just
kind of sweep out either because they're
not h they're all they all felt they
might get the CEO job and they're
unhappy or they're just they've spent
enough time there. Um, is this good or
bad? I'm going to have to go with
opportunity. And the reason being Apple
today and and any regular listener will
know that as someone fully locked into
the Apple ecosystem, it's just not been
an exciting company you love any longer.
It's a company that you're stuck with.
And it's just felt like that for a long
time. And I think the decision to have a
hardware leader of the caliber of Turnis
actually take the job is actually it's
important. And I think having others who
have kind of built these very heavy
things like very successful but like the
services business or you know just
overall like we haven't seen hardware
innovation that's succeeded from Apple
in a long time and that's what they need
and I think again another Craig Federigi
like uh you know uh big announcement of
him kind of getting excited like I feel
a little bit of turnover and a little
bit of new blood is not the worst thing
for Apple. Would you agree?
>> I agree wholeheartedly. And I think
people might have heard from my uh you
know my my first comments about Turn is
that I had some reservations about him
just because he comes from the hardware
side of things and we're moving to more
of a software world and has the hardware
of the iPhone changed all that much? Now
he, you know, obviously the chips have
been important. Um but the phone that I
that I have now, the latest generation,
doesn't look very much different than
the 16 or the 15 um the 17 that is. So
um so I would think that maybe you'd
want somebody more um services or
software oriented especially because
services has been showing like all the
growth within the company. But then I
thought about it and you know what I'm
going to turn his head now. I I'm a
full-on turn his head. I think that he
is going to be that new blood the
company needs like you said. Um this is
what he said when he came in. He said,
"I'm especially excited to be stepping
into this role at this moment because I
am telling you, we are about to change
the world once again." He said, "Apple
had an incredible road map ahead. I'm
not exaggerating when I say this is the
most exciting time to be building
products and services at Apple in my
entire career. AI is going to create
almost unlimited potential. We're going
to be able to keep unlocking
possibilities that are going to create
entirely new opportunities for our
products and services. And I'm so
excited about what that's going to mean
for our users. Seems like the right
message to be sending if you're taking
over Apple. And I just kept I thought
the same thing that you thought. This
company needs new blood. They have not
been inspiring. You know, yes, their
products are great. Yes, I'll choose an
iPhone uh over any other phone any day
of the week. Sorry to Android users. My
personal preference. I just think it's a
great phone. But they became
uninspiring, stale as a company, unable
to ship the products they announced like
Apple Intelligence. Clear out the upper,
clear the decks, bring in new blood. The
leader seems like he knows what he's
doing and let's have some dynamism from
this company again.
>> Yeah, I think I'm on the team Turnis
Turnis tribe. Maybe we'll have to work.
We'll think through take a moment on
that one. But I think
>> team Turnis I think works better. Turn
his head does not sound right.
>> No, no. Team Turnis team. Tribe. I don't
know if you can say tribe, but we'll go
we'll go team Turnis for uh for both
literation and it's safer. So, I think
the it's interesting the idea like for I
I mean the services part of the business
though I hate right now. And that's
someone who I realized I'm paying like
$40 a month for iCloud because I just
have more photos and I am stuck and I
will never be able to get out of it.
Like overall the way they've grown that
business has been it was $110 billion in
revenue last fiscal year which is insane
when you think about it. But no one is
actually excited to be paying Apple that
money. They just kind of have to. So I
think taking services, taking software,
and I'll put AI under that and starting
to rethink how that lives within
whatever world of hardware they're going
to actually is exciting. Like we've
talked about a this a lot like the the
interface with which you interact with
AI. No one knows what it's going to look
like. We've had our pins. We've had our
RIP humane. We've had what was the
rabbit R1 was like an effort. like
people have been trying things and no
one has nailed it. So the idea that at
scale there could be someone who might
figure this out in a pretty compelling
way. I think that that could be exciting
if he if he starts to starts to do
something and and you have a list we'll
get into about these potential new
products and that's like the most
excited I've been about Apple just
reading that list as we get into it. So,
so I think yeah, I'm going to this this
at least makes me want to wish Apple
well and hope for the best. Oh yes, most
definitely. I mean the again like if you
look and this is of course products that
were developed under Cook, but this is
something that Gurman spoke about on
TBPN this week. the list of uh of
product categories that Apple is um you
know working to build new product
categories that Apple is working to
build to me make a lot of sense. There
are these AI AirPods, there are smart
glasses, there's the pendant, a smart
display, a tabletop robot, and a
security camera. Now again this is this
been under development under Cook but
Turnis basically said again most
exciting time that I'm you know I've
been working on products and of course
he's been central to the iPhone
obviously going to shepherd a lot of
these products uh into production seems
to care somewhat about Siri maybe let
the guy running Siri leave I don't know
uh and and is and is prioritizing what
the future's going to be u so yeah I
think that this is bright
>> what has you most excited about that
list you just read.
>> Um, I will say that the AI AirPods
really do. I mean, you would imagine
that they're going to have a better
assistant and maybe again like let's
believe it when we see it. You would
imagine they would have a better
assistant now that they're like I think
distilling Gemini and turning that into
new Siri. Um, and if they do that and
they have an idea of of what to do with,
um, when you put that in the AirPods,
um, then you're looking at, you know, an
immediately the the most mainstream AI
device, um, in the world maybe out of
outside of the Amazon Echo. I don't
know. What do you think?
>> No. No. And it could be less intrusive
and more accepted because I myself and
many many other people around the
streets of New York certainly are just
wearing their AirPods. I wear them even
when I'm not listening to anything.
That's weirdly comforting as I walk
around. So to have that as a kind of
always on device. I don't know. Tabletop
robot. I don't know what that means,
what it is, but I I want it.
>> I'm pre-ordering.
>> I'm pre-ordering. Whatever you need,
John. Whatever you need, Turnis. I will
take your tabletop robot pendant. Kind
of exciting, I think. Like
>> No. No, it's not a pendant.
>> No, it's the pin. The pin. the pendant.
One of those, one of those will be
>> something will be something.
>> Really? We're going to be wear Can I
wear all this stuff? We're going to wear
AirPods, a pendant, a watch, the
glasses.
>> Do we need any more stuff on our body
that can do AI?
>> I think I think so. But actually, in
terms of new blood, I was just thinking,
no, no. I mean, I you know what? If it's
good, I'm putting it all on. But in
terms of new blood, it is crazy to me.
Like I mean you had just brought up the
launch of Apple Intelligence in any
other company
how botched that roll out was if like
listeners remember what's her name from
Last of Us Bella something the actress
like
>> Bella Ramsey
>> every Bella Ramsey those ads were so
misleading just flatout lies about the
capabilities that were existing at the
time took I mean Apple very few
companies have ever done any like have
done something that egregious. So the
fact that heads did not roll in a public
way actually is kind of a sign of like
overly being comfortable I think but
also I mean even more now that I'm
thinking about it like most companies
there would have been some serious
ramifications around that. And if you
do, I remember that interview where like
Craig and I think it was Eddie were just
kind of talking about how AI takes time
and they just had like the most no one
took responsibility. So I think if John
Turnis starts having people take some
responsibility for what has happened and
again financial results notwithstanding
when you have an ecosystem monopoly I
think like new blood actually is needed
rather than it's just okay to have.
>> Yeah that's right. Uh let let me tell
you one more thing about this because
you know a lot of this is is speculation
but we can at least talk a little bit
about the position that Apple is in
right now and doesn't it seem like like
John Turnis is going to be the makeorb
breakak CEO for Apple um that they are
really at a place where they can go one
of two ways and one is sort of nail this
moment and just become the ultra company
uh or you know they can sort
become the company that like two two
generations after Jobs kind of got stuck
under the weight of its own body and and
stalled.
>> Yeah, I I fully agree. make orb break
moment like the financial results don't
reflect and I know I sound ridiculous
saying that the actual state of where
the company is because it is a monopoly
in terms of like the way they've locked
people into the ecosystem has been
brilliant in terms of its execution but
it's not going to last forever I think
already that they I actually saw this
one tweet where apparently
The green bubble in iMessage has like a
slightly lower resolution even. So like
they created this you don't want to be
the green bubble person in your group
text like you want iMessage. They
created that luxury feel for so long.
But now no one I talked to is excited
about Apple products in any way which is
not a good thing in terms of the future
of the company and they can kind of ride
out the lock ecosystem lock in for long
enough but this is this is it. Turnis no
pressure.
>> They need the tabletop robot that will
make people excited again.
>> Tabletop robots will solve everything. I
mean
>> everything
>> everything.
I mean, until it decides to come down
off that tabletop if you're mean to it.
But that's that's for another I don't
know if you've seen these
>> stay on the tabletop. Just stay on and
we're okay.
>> I don't know if you've seen these videos
of Do you remember? This is actually an
important point to just talk about
robotics for a moment. Do you remember
last year there was the uh robot half
marathon in China and all these robots
were hilariously like slamming into the
floor. Uh these things I think one ran
the half marathon in under an hour this
year. I mean, I want my robot running I
I want my run robot running a marathon
in less a half marathon in less than an
hour. Like a robot should be faster than
a human. That doesn't scare me. I think
like if if we're putting them out there,
it's going to get you. You're not going
to outrun a robot. I think you're fully
underappreciating how difficult it is to
get a robot to move that fast, a
humanoid to move that fast. But I guess
it was inevitable.
my Yeah. Okay. I guess the mechanics of
it do seem like something very important
to uh to for the robotics industry, but
as long as the tabletop robot is not
leaving the table. And I don't even know
what it does. Like what what does it do
on the table? By the way, I just want to
say that this is your um humanoid
antihumanoid bias coming out. You're
like, if it runs, I don't care about it
at all. Because folks, if you've been
listening, Ranjan is not a fan of
humanoid robots. He wants purpose-built
robots.
>> See, this is why I like the tabletop
robot. I've been saying this for for
months now. I don't understand why
robots need a human form factor. I want
purpose-built and whatever this tabletop
robot is doing on that table. I'm sure
it's something very helpful. It's moving
stuff around. It's working the Actually,
I don't even know what it would be doing
on the table. I mean, from what I've
read, I'm pretty sure it's like a
robotic arm with a screen attached that
like rotates and shows you
>> That Okay, that does not sound that
exciting.
>> Sorry to take that fixing me. I thought
it was fixing me a drink or something
like that.
>> I think that's a few generations away.
Okay, so that's that's Apple. I think
ultimately good moment for for Apple.
Uh, honestly, kudos to them because this
was like the smoothest uh CEO transition
ever and their stock is actually
>> hasn't happened yet.
>> You're what? You think there's going to
be some last moment like Tim Cook
sitting on the throne being like, I
thought I could leave. Okay,
>> they'll never replace me.
>> I mean, have we done our background
checks on Turnis? I'm a Patriots fan and
Mike Rabel, good god. what's happened
this week. So, let's just Apple, do your
background checks. That's all I ask.
>> I want to just say there's been great
willpower on us to not bring up the
Rabel situation, but this is not a
sports podcast. We're going to just
glance past it, but that is
>> the only reference. That's the only
reference.
>> Um, all right, let's So, let's speak
about OpenAI and and their controversies
there. Um, you know, they released,
we're talking right after the release of
TPT 5.5, aka Spud. And I think one thing
that I've learned is to not judge a
model the day of. You got to give it
some time so people find the uses. But
you can judge the roll out. And one of
the things a lot of people have noticed
is that the roll out has been uh much
smoother maybe than typical. Um, this is
from this is a tweet from Cree Bivo. Uh,
I think that's how you pronounce it.
This feels like someone inside OAI,
OpenAI is doing work. They realized that
Anthropic Daario were gaining more
traction, mostly because they have a
good product, but also because people
like them and want them to win. First,
there was a night of funny drunk tweets,
which uh I think Sam tweeted an
anthropic growth employee, okay boomer,
um, after this person was like trying to
explain away something anthropic did.
And now this new product announcement
feels noticeably more personable and
dare I say humble might take this is
going to be a war of authenticity. And
that was above a tweet from Sam Baltman
announcing GPT 5.5 with a kind of
different tone than usual. He wrote he
wrote GPT 5.5 is here. We hope it's
useful to you. I personally like it.
Like that is that's the Spud tweet.
Compare that to the mythos roll out. Um
do you think that OpenAI is getting its
act together on coms?
>> I do. I do. I think it it this is what
I've been saying like everyone in any of
these cycles within AI everything is so
heavy and fast that I think we forget
how quickly things move and cuz again
anthropic it's been the last call it
what four to 6 months that it's just
been on a tear especially from like a
public perception standpoint but the
last since the launch of Opus 47 there's
been a lot of negative
sentiment around the launch of the model
and we can get into mythos overall and
how it's been rolled out and I got to
say GPT image 2 like the way that was
the most excited I've seen people about
kind of an advance in model even 55 I
haven't really heard much I think that
was today right or as we're recording
it's uh like the 55 part is just kind of
quietly rolled out but GPT image 2 like
and I saw more excitement around that
than I've seen in a long time. I went in
I started trying stuff. It was actually
it felt like a step change from Nano
Banano which kind of had people excited
by last. So I think on that side they
are doing something right in the last
few days they have not in done in a
while. I think also I don't know did you
see what Sam Altman changed his Twitter
bio to?
>> Yeah it's something understated like I
kind of like AI or something like that.
>> Yeah. No, no, it is it is AI is cool, I
guess. Lowercase I like. So, I saw you
had pointed out that one of the reasons
that they bought TBPN was from a comm
standpoint. And it was interesting cuz
like it felt like this was a very
purposeful thing when you're changing
that when he's starting to kind of like
snarky tweet back at a anthropic when
he's just doing like we hope it's
useful. I personally like it. I mean,
this is this is a decision and I think
it's a good one. I do think that we
could be seeing some TBPN uh influence
here. I definitely I tweeted that over
um this one about that was praising
OpenAI's com strategy and it was
definitely liked uh by someone high up
at TBPN. I'll put it that way. So, you
know, maybe that's what's going on. But
certainly this roll out has been, you
know, fairly smooth. It's not been
something that they have inflated
expectations on. Um, you know, remember
when before GPT5, like Altman was on,
Theo Vaughn and was talking about like
all these like massive things that it
was going to do. Um, and then it just
was felt it was he built it up so much
it was going to inevitably be a letdown.
I mean, obviously Brockman talked about
it on on this show uh beforehand. So, I
think this the uh expectations were
managed. Um they they also did something
interesting which is that they gave
access to GPT 5.5 to the entire company
of Nvidia and uh obviously Nvidia is
locked in this battle with Google and uh
Amazon and Anthropic which have you know
together basically trained two competing
models against the Nvidia Open AI uh
axis. Um, and then Jensen sent an email
out to Alphidia Nvidia obviously
praising uh GPT 5.5 and talking about
how well it's done. Uh, and Sam also uh
tweeted that. So that was like another
smart move. U
and lastly they are positioning it
against mythos and that's something that
I want to get your perspective on.
mythos of course cyber security
capabilities um and and cyber attack
capabilities and they portioned it off
um and this has not been the case with
uh with 5.5 and Sam in in a tweet on
launch said we believe in iterative
deployment we believe in democratization
we love you and we want you to win
basically saying we're doing it
completely different than anthropic
maybe they're seizing the moment what do
you think
>> okay you know But I'm already having to
back off. I was getting excited about
Sam's new face in this uh launch. But we
love you and want you to win. Come on.
My whole career has largely been about
the magic of startups. Like I think
enough has come out. Do you think people
are going to take this as sincere? I'm
sure plenty of people will, but do you
think like he's going to be able to
maintain this sincerity of we love you
and want you to win? I also noted and I
remember there was this one after
replying to an anthropic engineer. Okay,
Boomer, he quote tweeted tonight I have
had a couple of drinks misspelling
tonight. I actually looked up like does
Sam Altman drink and it's saying he's
had a lot of public statements about for
sleep optimization he does not consume
alcohol and then very rarely might. So
again, is he actually just sitting there
a little tipsy tweeting or is this now
now that I'm looking at it it's feeling
a little bit insincere? It might work
but it might backfire too.
>> Well, okay. Okay, so let's talk about
this because ultimately what this comes
down to is mythos versus spud or mythos
versus 5.5.
And um and I I I think that I'm curious
what you think the right approach is. I
totally hear Anthropic's perspective on
this, which is like we know that this
thing can do cyber attacks. We're going
to roll it out really slowly with a
series of trusted um partners. And then
I kind of hear OpenAI's perspective as
well, which I spoke with Greg Brockman
about that. Um, and you can listen to
that show on the feed. Um, that was
yesterday. And what he said is basically
like we're pretty confident in our
governance. We've built this in a way
that is not going to be permissive
towards cyber attacks. And you can um,
you know, you might get more refusals
because of it because of our the walls
around cyber attacks, but we want
everybody to have it. Um, what do you
think is the right approach here?
>> I think there's got to be a middle
ground between our next model release
will destroy humanity and crush the
world economy and Sam telling everyone
that he loves them. There's got to be I
mean like take a Microsoft announcement
or an Adobe Summit this week. There's
some software releases. There's some
upgrades. Not everything has to be
earthshattering and worlddefying. Like
it's just the next iteration of the
model. Like if these companies weren't
in the position of having to kind of
keep this drum beat of hype being pushed
until they go public in the markets. Do
we need this much hype for every new
model release? It makes for good
conversation fodder. But my my wish is
these would just be kind of like
they would be in release notes. Maybe
maybe there's like a press release and
that's it. It doesn't have to be this
all or nothing type of way of
communicating around it.
>> Is that are you a truther on the Well, I
guess it sort of depends on whether you
believe these things have real cyber
security capabilities or cyber offensive
capabilities as well. If they have cyber
offensive capabilities,
then you can't just, you know, sort of
say, "All right, go for it."
>> So, what's your perspective on that? Do
you think it's real? Cuz I think it's
real. From the people that I've spoken
with, I've done enough reporting on it
that I believe it's real, at least to
some degree.
>> So, so if it is real,
>> this week Bloomberg reported there was a
breach for Mythos where an unauthorized
group. They tried a number of different
strategies and were able to gain access
to the model. Um, they work for a
third-party contractor that works for
Anthropic. And the way they did it is
they literally like made educated
guesses about the mark the the target
URL to access the model. If your model
is truly as dangerous as you have made
it out to be over the last two weeks, if
I am anthropic, this announcement, you
should be hair on fire running around
cuz if they did it by guessing a URL and
having contractor access, God knows who
else has it. China already has it. The
whole Jensen dwarfish thing just becomes
moot. Like, if it is so powerful and
dangerous, this should be the biggest
story. and they should be telling the
world how not only are they incredibly
sorry about what has happened, they are
doing everything in their power to
actually fix this and nothing. This is
just like they don't care. I don't know.
Do like if it's truly breached in such a
pedestrian way, like shouldn't they care
more? Well, first of all, I'll say just
because a couple of dorks in the Discord
got access to Mythos doesn't mean that
the cyber offensive capabilities of
Mythos are a lie. Um, if you would have
given it to everybody and and had a
nothing burger, then I would have said
something. But it's not on its face
disqualifying. Then I'll say it's we're
already now in week three of is Mythos
real? Um, and I appreciate your
skepticism around it. I really do. I
think that we just we've kind of here
are this is our new product or the
model. I think you and I are kind of at
an impass and we're just going to have
to wait and see to get
>> but but no no but I want to ask
shouldn't that be more important if a
couple of guys couple of folks in the
discord are able to access your like
potentially world destructive model?
Shouldn't that be if you are working for
Anthropic? If you're a leading
anthropic, shouldn't that be the most
terrifying thing imaginable if it is
real?
>> I mean, let me put it this way. Hasn't
Anthropic had a number of similar
situations? The source code for like
Claude Code leaked and all this stuff
and it's just like they're I think it's
almost like they're leaving too much to
Claude and they probably should have
thought this through. Why didn't Claude
tell them to change the naming
convention if they were
>> working on this release?
>> Powerful. No, but I say,
>> yeah, I think it's just more if like it
the the kind of whiplash from most
dangerous thing on earth, sandwich in
the park, the model is coming to life
and you're anthropomorphizing it and
it's like going to come out and take you
and send emails and post without your
like going from that to oh yeah, by the
way, anyone can access it by g guessing
a URL and some contractor access and h
whatever. To me, it just doesn't square.
>> You and uh I brought this up in the Greg
Brockman conversation yesterday, but you
and Sam Alman have similar perspective
on this. Um and this is a just a uh so
Sam Alman was at on Ashley Vance's
podcast this week and he talked about
mythos and he said, "It's clearly
incredible marketing to say we've built
a bomb. We were a we were about to drop
it on your head. We will sell you a bomb
shelter for hund00 million thrown across
all your stuff, but only if we pick you
as a customer.
That's good. That's good. Okay. May May
maybe maybe Sam does love us. Maybe he
wants to make magic at scale, which is I
think what the rest of that tweet said.
>> Yep. Well,
>> magic at hypers scale. Magic at scale
would be would be a let down. That's who
who wants that?
>> Come on. Um well, did get Dario back
into the White House. Looks like they're
going to have a deal with the White
House again to start working with the
whole government. So if anything it did
that
>> magic at hypers scale. That's all I'm
thinking about right now. That's my new
purpose in life to deliver magic at
hypers scale. I don't know
>> how but that's what that's what I want
to do.
>> You're now having this skepticism around
AI. So this might be a good opportunity
for me to read a comment that we got on
the uh on the Brockman video and and see
what you think. Uh, we're closing in on
four years since LM models were broadly
released to the public. And you guys are
still talking about how the next model
will be so amazing. Always the next one.
Meanwhile, Oracle laid off half its
company. Facebook is in the current
currently in the process of laying off
half its company. Data centers are being
cancelled one after another. Chat GPT
now has ads. It was a good run. Try time
to pivot to the next topic.
>> That's a good Our listener. We got some
spicy by the way. I like it. I I
appreciate our reader feedback, our
listener feedback, our viewer feedback,
just as long as it's not two stars in
the Apple podcast or Spotify app, but I
when people disagree with us, I I like
it. It's it's mind expanding. You know,
we are cuz we are again in this world
where it's like, all right, the next
model is going to be so good.
>> U but I I would say they've improved. I
would say it's really hard to argue that
they haven't improved.
>> I I will say they've dramatically
improved. Again, I work in the industry.
I I was the one who said when everyone
said 5 or 51 was a dud
>> that reasoning and tool calling were
going to be the next big thing. You're
>> right.
>> There's been dramatic
step changes along the way. But but I
also fully empathize with the listener
that like I hate the talk about the next
model and just what I was saying a few
moments ago. I want the next model
release to be as boring as whatever
Adobe launched at Summit this week or
Microsoft launched at whatever else.
Copilot for co-work
like that's what it should be not like
beware humanity our next model is
dropping.
You want to know what I think is getting
underplayed this week, and you already
mentioned it, but I think we should just
say this before we go to break. The chat
GPT images 2.0 is insane.
>> Oh, it's search the web. It can edit
images. I mean, it is uh I've I've
tested like crazy every one of these
image generators from Dolly on out. This
thing is insane.
Insane. No, no. This is why this was
genuinely
that I would put this at step change on
the image generation side. the thinking
side wasn't as interesting to me because
any recent model should be able to do
this kind of multi-step reasoning and if
web search is part of it but like just
seeing the outputs and I've seen a lot
of kind of what got us all excited about
Nano Banana 2
um or Nano Banana Gemini Flash 2 like
looks cartoonish already compared to
what uh like uh ChatePT image 2 is
doing. So, I think this was this was
big. This this was actually a very
impressive thing. Do I think but it's
interesting. It's a software update that
is good. Do I think it's like going to
change humanity? No. But it was very
impressive.
>> This was the first one that actually had
me worrying about the future of graphic
designers. It's that good. I'm not even
kidding.
Oh, I guess I mean this is I've worried
about the future of graphic designers
who do traditional graphic design for a
long time and actually I mean claude
design and what it's able to do I think
this has been coming for for a while and
I think like just being able to do some
kind of like image alteration or
improvement or even like UX layout of a
website I think that kind of skill has
been going the way of someone kind of
like writing email subject lines for a
long time. But I don't I I guess to me
that didn't change that much. It is
interesting like
visual communication
and because what I saw happening much
better with this is actually kind of
communicating an idea like Nano Banana
could do some kind of like good
cartoonish flowcharts. But like GVT
image 2 actually was communicating
visual concepts much much better or like
communicating visually not even visual
concepts.
>> Agreed. All right, let's take a break
and talk about these cuts at Meta and
whatever else we can fit in until we
have to go. We'll be back right after
this. And we're back here on Big
Technology Podcast Friday edition. We're
here with Ron John Roy of Margins as we
typically are on Fridays. And we have
kind of a depressing story or set of
stories out of Menllo Park, California.
Um this is from Bloomberg. Meta tells
staff it will cut 10% of jobs in push
for efficiency. Meta Platforms plans to
cut 10% of workers or roughly 8,000
employees in an effort to boost
efficiency and offset its heavy spending
on artificial intelligence. The company
disclosed the move in a memo sent to
employees Thursday. Uh Meta also won't
hire employ hire workers for 6,000 open
roles that has it had intended to fill
the cut. The job cuts come as chief
executive officer Mark Zuckerberg is
spending aggressively on the talent and
infrastructure needed to develop
state-of-the-art artificial intelligence
products including LMS and chatbots.
Well, um, as if that was not enough,
this is from Reuters. Meta to start
capturing employee mouse movements,
keystrokes for AI training data. Meta is
installing new traffic tracking software
on US-based employees computers to
capture mouse movements, clicks, and
keystrokes for use and training its
artificial intelligence models. Part of
a broad initiative to build AI agents
that can perform work tasks autonomy,
the company told staffers in an internal
memo seen by Reuters. one hand laying
people off, on the other hand, those
that stay have the pleasure of their
movements and keystrokes and whatever
they're doing on their computers being
used to train AI. Your reaction?
>> Okay, let's separate out the two. The
first it actually shocked me or it
didn't shock me but it's just it's
incredible to me that for years on the
metaverse spending in reality labs they
never would tie any kind of cost cutting
efforts the entire year of efficiency
was that 2024
2023
>> 23
>> 23 uh like he never directly attributed
it to because we are spending so much on
the metaverse. And it's kind of like
amazing that now we are cutting 8,000
people to offset our heavy spending on
artificial intelligence. So the market I
get loves hearing that. So investors
love hearing that. So people will
continue to do it. But I don't know. I I
feel Do you think it's the right way to
communicate for these companies just
because they know it'll pop their stock
in the short run?
Well, this is one I don't think is about
comms at all. I think this is
legitimately like they are doing what
they said they're doing, right? They
are.
>> But is it is it overhiring and a bloated
company that just needs to actually trim
itself, which is I think very true for
many many of these big companies,
especially over the last 5 years, or is
it really like we need to cut costs so
we can invest more in artificial
intelligence?
>> I think it's the latter. I mean, they've
spent so much money on AI. They're
spending on the data centers. The market
is actually much less forgiving if you
don't have margins, right? And they they
don't have I mean, they have some ROI on
the AI because it's helping optimize
their creative stack. And I think there
was a headline recently that they're
going to pass Google as the largest
advertising business. So, they see that
the results there, but they're not a
platform that's sort of benefiting from
this surge in demand for AI compute.
they haven't built super AI super
intelligence um so they are they are in
a position where they cannot remain this
bloated especially as they don't have um
the leading model well but
normally they've spent a lot of money so
just saying we will spend more money to
me isn't a reassuring message like uh at
the as a headline it sounds like okay
this is good this is what everyone needs
to be doing but like money has not been
the problem what were they paying people
a couple of months ago to join
>> I mean they basically I mean this is
facicious but they effectively spent uh
15 billion to hire Alexander Wayne
>> yeah I mean all so so more money is not
the answer so like again I get if the
company is just bloated if he wants to
kind of like start to make things leaner
go into Zuck beast mode, year of
efficiency type stuff. I I mean I if
anyone is able to do that well and
better than others, it's his Zuckerberg.
But like I don't know, just because it
means we'll be able to invest more. I
still I don't quite buy that. But that's
separate from the key tracking that
>> Yeah,
>> talk about that. I
it's one of those that it starts to make
like purely technically
it's almost kind of interesting like if
it's terrifying but it's interesting in
terms of is everyone essentially
training models to do the things they're
doing repetitively
which is efficient I guess um I guess
like yeah why do you work there then I
think I if The goal is
maybe there could be an inspiring all
right here's my attempt here in the
future the type of work you will need to
be doing is and I believe this like
moving a little bit of information from
system A to system B making a little
presentation around it doing a little
kind of like ins adding your own tiny
bit of insider analysis and being that
cog in a larger process is not going to
be a lot of knowledge work. So maybe
Zuckerberg can stand up and he can just
be like, I am preparing you all for the
future so you can be the best positioned
out of any kind of tech company employee
to kind of meet the needs of this
future. That's my inspiring message
behind this.
>> I mean I I hope he I hope he'd be doing
it like on, you know, locked in his
office on like a conference room phone
because he would get vegetables thrown
at him from the Meta cafeteria if he
said that. Um, you know, in the in the
history of of labor and trans
transitions of this nature, um, there
was a practice back in the day called
tailorism where they they measured the
movements of people working in the
factory and they got them to move as
efficiently as possible. They literally
controlled their movement to uh be like
a machine so there wouldn't be any
wasted movement. and then eventually
they replaced many of them with
machines. I just don't see stories like
this uh ending uh in the right way for
the worker. And um I will say there's
one interesting wrinkle here which is
that um do you remember scale AI
Alexander Wang's uh old company
>> they told me recently that most of the
training that they're doing is
reinforcement learning where you build
environments uh for the bots and they go
and they try to figure out what to do
and well if you're what do you need to
do to build these great reinforcement
learning environments? you sort of need
to show them forms and web behavior and
stuff like that and then you try to get
them to model it and uh with Alexander
weighing within meta I wouldn't be
stunned if that is what's happening is
that you know maybe the the other way to
read this is instead of like uh a
complete AI automation move it is
effectively building gyms for bots that
need more environments to do
reinforcement learning within. That is
fascinating. And and if Alexander Wang
is adding value postacquisition
in this way, maybe that 15 billion was
was worth it. I I was kind of fascinated
like they also there was no denial at
all of this happening. Like part of the
reporting was that uh the CTO BA Andrew
Bos like he responded in the thread that
there is no option out of this on your
workprovided laptop. This comment
received a mix of crying, shocked and
angry face emojis. But also the official
response from Meta to Business Insider
was there are safeguards in place to
protect sensitive content and the data
is not used for any other purpose. like
they it is amazing to me that they just
they said it there's no backing off of
what they're doing. So So this is this
is kind of nuts. It's
>> this is crazy. Yeah, there's definitely
a few jobs that I've held in my life
that I really would not want this
software to be installed on uh because I
had nothing to do and spent a lot of
time on like college humor.com. See this
is actually imagine if everyone is just
on Twitter is on not doing work and
that's what all the training data is
received and like that the a the agents
just like they start he starts to put
him to work and then they're just
scrolling and then they go to Instagram
and then they like
>> you're going to see these agents you're
right they're going to be tasked with
like you know writing a deck for you.
You're gonna have it take over your
computer. Midway through it's going to
be on YouTube watching dogs on
skateboards and you're going to be like,
"What's going on here?" He's like,
"Well, I learned that this is the right
way to do work.
>> Trust the data. Trust the data. Trust
the training."
>> I'm sure we'll end up seeing some
ridiculous study about this and it'll be
like AI models that procrastinate are
actually more effective than AI models
that stick to task. Actually, did you
see I think she's like the anthropic
ethicist.
There was all these videos going around
around like this interview. Basically,
the idea was like
>> she was she's like the one who's under
supposed to understand like the
emotional underpinnings
of Claude and the model and like was
talking about
>> Amanda Escoll. Yeah. and how it is
anxious. And so maybe you should let
your agent watch a little YouTube,
surf a little X, just it will get the
job done in a more efficient way. When
you push it too hard, it's it's just not
going to do a good job. Give it a break.
Don't Don't we all don't we all need a
break? Don't we all just need some time
to divert from task and try something
completely meaningless? That's the
that's what being human is all about.
>> And it will learn as it tracks your
behavior if you're a meta employee.
>> I could just imagine all these meta
employees like buil having AI token max
doing some dumb while spending the
whole day like watching videos on their
phone.
That's the new that is that is the
future of work in 2026.
>> If there was a Silicon Valley, if that
show existed now, I wonder if there'll
be a new version of that, but there's
just so much material.
>> Kind of hard to parody at this point
because it is so ridiculous as it is,
>> right?
>> There's no parody.
>> All right. All right. So, look, as as we
come to a close, we've had this uh
basically comparison of streaming prices
uh in our prep dock for weeks now and we
have an opening for a rant. So, why
don't you take us home, Ron John, with a
little exposition here on the increase
in streaming prices and what it means.
So, the Bureau of Labor Statistics tells
us that the consumer price index rise in
the last year was 2.6%.
Now,
as someone who subscribed to too many
streaming services over the last years
and does not know when to cut what and
has a son who won't let them cut Disney
Plus and a wife who said the idea of
Netflix or HBO ever leaving or even Hulu
or Peacock, you know, these things. So,
I I was curious because Netflix the
other day just raised prices to $15.99
for the individual plan, but they
severely restrict you in number of
devices. So, I think I'm paying $27 now,
which is insane. So, I went back and
looked it since 2019 because I was kind
of like pre- pandemic, how much have
prices gone up? And we all knew there
was this moment where the streaming
business did not make sense and this was
a loss leader for all these companies
other than Netflix. So Disney Plus came
out at $699. It's currently $18.99.
Hulu went from $1199 to $18.99.
HBO Max actually to their premium
positioning only 14.99 to $18.99. Now
Peacock basically five bucks to 11
bucks. Paramount Plus 5 to eight bucks.
Apple TV again going back to my hatred
of their services business now comes in
at $5 bundles you in. Now it's $13 a
month. Like all of these things I think
I don't know when you look at your
monthly expenses then deciding what
you're going to have to cut and you see
this across everything. It was the Uber
mentality as well. But I think I don't
know I I was thinking like there needs
to be an inflation metric relative to
the average probably big technology
listener tech industry participant just
kind of like I don't know just like
upwardly mobile techsavvy person that is
just stuck subscribing to all this. use
of Spotify has been jacked up as well
and there's no backlash. There's no big
consumer like movement to actually like
cancel these services. Are you cutting
any of these?
>> I have tried for a while to like just be
subscribed to the one that I use most
often, but I've given up. I'm like quite
fatigued at like trying to cancel
Netflix and then reinstalling it and
stuff like that. So now I have Netflix,
I have Prime Video, HBO,
and
I think I think I subscribed to like
Paramount Plus for like 30 bucks for the
year. I wanted to watch the South Parks
with the AI. So,
>> but then you have Peacock for Premier
League, Paramount and NFL, Paramount
Plus for NFL. I don't know. I like it is
interesting to me that I was at my
parents' place who still have cable and
it actually kind of made me miss cable
and I don't I they're spending like 180
bucks which I think I'm spending more
now
>> but
>> crazy
>> is is all this AI hype going to end up
with us longing for the days of
basically what streaming has done make
me wish and miss cable. Is that what's
going to happen? Well, first of all,
it's just going to get worse for two
reasons. Uh, one is we're starting to
see consolidation in the space. Like you
have Netflix as this clear winner and
then um and then Paramount and Warner
Brothers Discovery are going to tie up,
right? So like you're going to see well
it's actually good that the two will
balance each other out. Um but like the
days of every streamer competing with
every streamer kind of on even footing
in price matters uh it seems to be away
seems to be going away. And then of
course um with AI trained on human
screen behavior um they now are required
to watch at least 5 hours of Netflix
during the workday. And that is a demand
signal that we're all going to get
screwed by. And then Apple and Turnis
will somehow solve it all and unbundle
all their subscription services and
actually make it just a product I'm
excited about and I don't feel trapped
by.
>> That is something that Apple could do.
So maybe they will.
>> I will be again.
>> Yeah,
>> iCloud freaking photos. I'm paying $40 a
month. I don't even know how. It
literally was telling me that like it
was telling me telling my wife we're on
a family plan like you will lose access
to your photos your entire life like if
you do not pay us gun to head. That is
the Apple services business model. Now
>> they certainly have I will say this they
certainly have some mafiaesque
business practices in there. So, I mean,
Turtis, of course, will have to make
make money to bring it full circle, but
hopefully he like looks at this and just
realizes it's going to be his legacy and
decides not to do stuff like this cuz
that sucks.
>> How do you think there's subscription
revenue tied to the tabletop robot?
>> I hope so. I hope so.
>> It's consumption based, token based.
>> That's it. Every time it moves, oh my
gosh, the more complex it does, you just
get an iPhone notification. You've been
charged another.
>> Oh my god. I can just imagine the ad.
The scene fades in from black. Standing
in next to a beautiful glass table with
a tabletop robot and a screen attached
to its hand is one Ron John Roy. Here's
how the ad begins. Hi, I'm Ron Johnroy.
I hope you're enjoying your tabletop
robot. And I hope you keep paying $10.99
a month for the for the pleasure of
being able to preserve everything in
your house because once your
subscription lashes, I will be using
these robots to smash your up.
>> That's That is the turnest business
model and the stock is going to
skyrocket. That's it. That's it. Now we
figured it we at least figured it out.
Figured out what the tabletop robot is
for. There it is.
>> It's merely a threat. It's merely a
threat to keep paying your services
bill.
>> Gotta have something. That thing will
knock the out of you.
>> Now that is innovation and that is how
we will end another week here on Big
Technology Podcast Friday edition. Ron
John, great to see you as always. Thank
you again for coming on.
>> See you next week.
>> Nothing is safe. All right, everybody.
Thanks for listening and we'll see you
next time on Big Technology