What's the Right Amount of Tech to Give Kids?: A Psychologist and Parent Weigh In

Channel: Alex Kantrowitz

Published at: 2024-12-26

YouTube video id: R8rxNlqhj1Q

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8rxNlqhj1Q

let's talk about the right level of
technology to give to kids and how
technology changes the Adolescent mind
with a concerned parent and a practicing
psychologist that's coming up right
after this welcome to Big technology
podcast a show for cool-headed nuance
conversation of the tech world and
Beyond today we're going to talk about
how Tech impacts kids looking a bit
about the debate that's going on in
Academia but really just like what's the
impact of technology on kids' minds and
we're here with two great guests Ginger
Burke Ule is the founder and CEO of
Burke creative the host of The Honest
Field Guide uh and a big technology
listener and also a concerned parent
Ginga great to see you welcome to the
show thank you so much for having me
Alex this is amazing thanks for being
here we're also joined by Rona novic
she's a clinical psychologist the dean
amera of Yeshiva University's azrieli
school and the author of two children's
books about anxiety and Independence
mommy can you stop the rain and Daddy
can you make me tall and also someone
I've known for pretty much my entire
life Rona great to see you welcome to
the show same here Alex thanks for
having me so I'm just going to start
this discussion back at a discussion
that Ginga and I had at the Fast Company
Innovation Festival a few months ago so
Ginga came up to me and she's like
listen I'm a big technology listener uh
you speak often about the tech business
and what's going on in the tech World
which I think she enjoys but she's like
there's another side of tech which is
that this is taking over kids' lives and
as a parent I'm concerned about it and I
need to hear a discussion about it on
the show and I said you know what that's
totally correct we need to have this
conversation we've had Jonathan hey on
the show talking a little bit about his
um his book and his and his philosophy
about kids and Tech which we're going to
talk about but we haven't had a show to
date that actually has a parent on the
show and a psychologist on the show
talking a little bit about what the
healthy amount of technology is for kids
so we're going to do it so Ginga I'm
just curious if you could help me out
here and tell me a little bit more in
detail about your experience with tech
um specifically when it comes to your
kids and what your concerns
are I've been wanting to have this
conversation first of all for a really
long time and so I'm grateful that you
took me up on this because it is it's a
scary and challenging conversation we're
all in the tech business in the tech
world and these companies you know we
rely on them and they rely on us um my
my challenges began during the pandemic
um 2019 in Chicago the uh Chicago Public
Schools went on strike and then right
after the strike ended which was the
longest in the history of our city the
pandemic hit so there was a month
between where there was school and then
there was no school for almost two years
so I have three sons um one is 20 at the
Mand School of Music my 18-year-old is a
division one volleyball athlete at
miramac and my youngest is a hockey
player at loyal Academy and will met and
at the time the three of them um you
know they were in school but they were
online and it's so interesting um just
last night I was looking back at some
old images because I um I'm I'm working
on a project and I saw the before and
after of my children before the pandemic
and after and the images that repeatedly
came into my you know Google slideshow
in my kitchen were my kids on gaming
devices during the pandemic
so I even put a post out Alex that said
please open the schools get my kids off
these games and you know that's really
where it started for me um I was
overwhelmed I have my own company and I
didn't really have at the time um any
way to really manage my children's
online experience and I didn't really I
knew something was wrong to the level
that they were playing video games and
things like that um but I did didn't
really know what to do about it and
neither did the teachers I mean they'd
have online classes and the teachers
would not be realizing during the class
the kids were gaming and so anyway just
like I said two years of this plus they
reached into the like minds of my
children during a very formative time of
their lives you know Middle School to
high school and these are these are I
don't know if you remember Alex what it
was like when you were in Middle School
to high school as a male as an American
male but those are really important
times to make connections and have
convers iations and meet people be in
public you know just walk around be in
communities go to parties go to events
and they literally weren't doing that
everything was happening online and so I
do think that there was a moment in time
where they were really interrupted from
some of their potential and I think uh
based on what I'm seeing now that's
still having impact today with my with
my three sons so Rona what are you
seeing in practice here and is what
Ginga is describing is that an outlier
or is that a normal experience for
parents it's not only not an outlier I
say it's Universal um the pandemic
really impacted all age children um we
actually did some research on
preschoolers and unlike teens who could
connect socially online during the
pandemic preschoolers don't chat online
with their buddies and so they miss the
developmental window at the age of two
and three and four when you first start
going away from your parents and
beginning to develop relationships with
other human beings
um even with other adults like Nursery
School teachers and kindergarten
teachers um what we heard over and over
again from Educators was that the
students are two years behind where they
should be once school's opened and it's
not just two years behind academically
it's two years behind socially it's two
years behind emotionally and their
ability to tolerate frustration to work
consistently over a period of time to do
things that are challenging or difficult
to problem solve independently and with
others and to work collaboratively
became incredibly difficult now part of
this and I have to say that I love being
on a podcast about technology with two
technology gurus and I am an old lady
who can you know is really happy when I
can get certain things to work um in my
in my Techno World world um but what
what I want to say is that this it's not
all bad during the pandemic the only way
I could connect to my adult children and
my grandchildren was through a screen
and even beyond the pandemic I'm blessed
with a family that has spread across the
globe and the way that we stay a family
and part of each other's lives is thanks
to the wonders of technology so the
question is not in know and and the
other thing is that the same discussions
happened when the pencil was introduced
when writing the technology of the
written word was introduced the same
conversations happened when the printing
press made the written word available to
the uneducated masses people talked
about it as if this is going to be the
end of society as We Know It And yet
some of the changes were for the better
absolutely and I leted off this
discussion saying let's talk let's talk
about the right way that kids could use
technology not whether they should or
should not because it seems like they're
just going it's going to be a fact of
life and there's nothing that we're
going to really do about that and there
is a lot of benefit so I think we're
going to really focus on sort of what
the impact is and then what the right
way to use this technology is and I
think Rona you brought up a really
interesting point where there's a
difference between connection and
consumption
and I have some new data from the Pew
research um Institute about what the
most
popular technology is for kids and
YouTube is actually the top so this is
from pug YouTube tops the list of online
platforms we asked about in our survey
nine and 10 teens report using the site
uh slightly down by that from 95% in
2022 which is interesting I think
they've probably moved to Tik toac
and this really uh was the stat that
caught my caught me my attention overall
73% of teens say they go on YouTube
daily this share includes 15% who
describe their use as almost
constant so is there a difference
between I mean I think Facebook has even
studied this as well is there a
difference between passive consumption
of media and active consumption of media
basically you know when it comes to an
adolescent brain
is it better for them to be on
technology watching YouTube or let's say
on WhatsApp messaging their friends I
don't know I'm I'm also like a little
too old school maybe it's Roblox there's
no there's no WhatsApp with K what
they're not what Alex all right I'm
showing my age okay they're doing Roblox
I got a Roblox account do you really
yeah I was at my friend's house and his
daughter's like you want to play me on
Roblox and I said okay this is a good
research opportunity but I I couldn't
the UI for me was a little bit too much
and I was that next thing I know I had
to pay money to you know even get
clothes on that thing so I was like no
I'm not doing this but um but I'm
curious no let's let's go to it really
active versus passive I mean let's go
first to the parent and then we'll go to
Rona um so Ginga do you want your kids
like you said they're using video games
U do you see a difference there in terms
of like uh consumption of media versus
let's say chat so there is a problem
with consumption in general I mean in
the United States we just have overc
consumption of everything and this is
mat calistic country you know we're
capitalists and I love capitalism I am a
capitalist in some ways um but I think
that I I I'm in the camp where and and I
know that Rona disagrees with me a
little bit about this but um I do
believe that we should be talking about
creation um versus consumption I do
think that these tools are powerful to
make things like absolutely stunningly
powerful you can make a lot of money you
could make a lot of art you could make a
lot of books that you've written and get
them out there and sell them and make
money and I think that young people are
really um you know they are naturally
creative in the beginning anyway um and
they're naturally making things and so I
do think that there needs to be a
conversation around how can these tools
actually you know sure you can be
passively surfing along you know Tik Tok
and YouTube and and playing video games
and buying outfits and things for all
these these device these these platforms
if you want but also if you can have a
young person recognize that these are
tools that can change their lives and
help them learn and bring money to the
family and make a little couple bucks
like you know on a garage sale I mean I
don't know why that conversation is not
taking place I feel like my children
were established in the monory method
and this is a place where critical
thinking skills were designed and
developed you know for young people and
I think now because of the way these
these tools have hijacked and captivated
their imaginations they're not really
thinking of them as tools really truly
are consuming at at scale I mean not a
little bit they're consuming filters
they're consuming you know going on
games like Roblox and and not trying to
think of how to develop a Roblox game
they're thinking of how to use the game
to get and buy things inside the game
and it's really training and prepping
them for things like sports betting or
you know going on and and you know
spending money on other platforms so I
the whole you know consumption versus
passive is is problematic for me I'm an
entrepreneur in my entire life and even
in in my business I talked to a lot of
business owners about how to use tools
to make money and I've kind of talked to
my children about that I am very
disturbed when I see my 15-year-old no
I'm sorry my 16-year-old literally
spending every day of his life on
YouTube and not trying to figure out how
to use YouTube to make money so you know
I know there's ways to use these tools
for philanthropy and I do train you know
companies nonprofit organizations how to
use these tools to make money and and
get get customers and and raise
awareness but for young people listen if
they if they understood all the all day
all night that they could make money
with this I think that it would
transform their thinking and make them
less sad because they would actually be
empowered I hear you and I just want to
um say two things about that first of
all I'm a little bit worried about how
young kids will be when they start
getting into like the system of trying
to make money and sort of you know how
young is too young to be a business
owner but there's one thing that you
said that I think is really resonant to
me which is you know there was a a stat
a little while ago about how um kids
wanted to be a YouTuber that was the
number one profession that they were
interested in being in and everyone
looked that this is like a disastrous
thing but uh if you think about it the
way that our economy is going we're
going to have ai that's going to take
over lots of root tasks and the way that
people are going to find their way in
the new economy is going to be through
creating creativity and creation and so
if kids want to be a YouTuber you know
that requires creativity and creation
and maybe it's not the worst thing to um
to have them have that interest and and
so on your point about you know how do
you get them involved in the creation
versus the consumption you know I'm
totally on board but I guess like we can
have our opinions uh but again it's so
great that Rona is here because I want
to go to you I
just add a slightly different dimension
because but I'm not sure I I agree
actually that creation is very different
than passive consumption and and Jing
Jen knows my feelings about the creation
being exclusively focused on let's make
money as opposed to Creation to let's
make art or let's make a difference oh
no that's that's what I mean too I
understand understand I understand um
the the the part that I think the
distinction that I think is perhaps as
if not more important is isolation
versus
connection if I am sitting alone
watching YouTube which is what most
people do it is not an an activity
that's done in a group it's done solo if
my entire diet of interaction with other
humans is on a small screen and not in
the real world then I'm not getting full
social
nutrition and you know Ginga talked
about her sons have healthy appetites
for connection
their soccer player or I don't remember
the sports but hockey those are team
sports where they're learning to relate
to others to collaborate to manage
conflict in real time in the real world
with real faces we know the research is
clear as good as AI is and I have such
AI horror stories um and and things that
it's developed with you know people with
three hand I I once asked AI to give me
a picture of students in a classroom
engaged by raising their hands and it
looked like everyone was on a roller
coaster because they had the students
raise both arms they were really engaged
they were doubly engaged um so the AI
fingers right AI is only as good as you
know our prompts are at least at this
point I'm sure it will get smarter than
us at some point but I I think that it
is critical for us to think about how do
we expand our children's diet
so that they aren't only
consuming technological stuff and the
other piece
is the purveyors of Technology many of
them who make technology for young
people do not have young people's mental
health or growth or learning as their
bottom line they have
profits so they create technology that
is
very much like gambling that sets up the
same behavioral consequences and
addictive tendencies that gambling does
but it does it in brains for young
people with brains where the frontal
lobe which is our most rational
decision-making even keeled part of our
brain is not developed in adolescence
it's not online
yet and we're putting addictive tools
in their
laps what happens when that part of the
brain meets
technology well undeveloped part of the
brain yeah what I find interesting is
first of all without that frontal lobe
we're more
impulsive we think with our affect
rather than
logic and we we don't kind of put on the
breaks and therefore I hear young people
all the time say who are very technos
Savvy but very world stupid
they they say things like well nobody
can track that I sent somebody
80 threatening text messages cuz I
deleted them from my
phone not understanding that anything
that you do in an online space has a
trail in some cases that will follow you
forever I've had young people even when
faced with concrete evidence that
someone someone was pretending to be
another person online deny it happened
to me once these are you know this is
such an old story but we had one
computer in our home at the time it was
a desktop it wasn't portable and my son
was doing his homework he was a teenager
at the time a high school student and I
said I I need to quickly send an email
can I just quickly send an email I'm not
going to sign you out I'm not going to
log on as me I'll just send an email
quickly and while I'm sending an email I
get in the old days of instant messages
or popups whatever I get one of those
that says Eton what's the answer to
problem number
10 and I say it's not Aon it's his mom
I'm using the computer for a minute and
I get another I am why are you ghosting
me answer the question you don't want to
tell me the answer that's fine but don't
tell me you're his mom and I said it
really is his mom
they wouldn't
believe they wouldn't believe it it
wasn't me on the other end of that
computer was it I don't remember maybe
it was I have so many horror I have so
many horror stories like that during the
pandemic uh it's you know I mean what
you're describing is very very
light and to what's really actually
happening with these with these young
people online that's very very light yes
but are we getting are we getting to so
again thinking about the way that we
kicked off this discussion are we
getting to a place where we're talking a
little bit about the right way to use
this and the right way to build this for
the users and for the parents the kids
who are maybe listening and the builders
here which is at the more healthier use
I'll just put the point on it the more
healthier use is do something
interactive do something creative versus
spend time on the YouTubes and the Tik
toks and that might be something that
sort of um is surprising to parents
because I do think that like often times
like the way and it's not surprising to
see that YouTube is the number one
social media app because often times the
way the parents think about technology
is give kids YouTube and they view it as
the least harmful uh possible technology
no ging goad no no no I mean I also want
to mention to we're talking about
addictive Technologies um you know there
was a film uh a documentary years ago
called the addiction machine and it was
about the engineers and anthropologists
and addiction uh you know uh doctors
that went into Vegas to figure out how
to make the slot machines more addictive
literally and they brought these people
in and there was one person that
transformed the entire industry in Vegas
and change the way the machines were
built and created an entirely new system
that made Vegas a extraordinary amount
of money and those those those people um
that went into Vegas I mean they are in
the tech companies they are there and
they know exactly what they're doing and
I think that um what jumped out at me
about about the pandemic was I don't
think they know what they had until the
pandemic when they saw they had a
trapped community of people that
couldn't get out and then they saw all
this money coming in and all this
attention and this like uh
unrelentless sort of invasive situation
happening where it actually transformed
it transformed everything in those days
and I think
um you know when I think about when I
think about Solutions again um there
needs to be conversations in schools
that talk about critical thinking and
how to create things and how to make art
how to write a book how to read a book
you know how to have conversations um
how to stand up and you know present
yourself in front of an audience and
speak there you know how to how to how
about this you know if we had cooking
classes again why not have cooking
classes in school and set up a camera to
teach someone how to actually present
their cooking skills in front of a in
front of a camera and then they can put
that on YouTube and present that as
their final paper quote unquote paper I
mean there's ways to integrate the these
um you know these opportunities for
entrepreneurship and learning and using
the tools in a healthy way but that also
requires a shift in the um education
system in the United States I mean we
have an education system that was in my
I'm not a scientist I'm not a scholar
like Rona um and I'm not in I haven't
been in technology as long as you have
Alex you worked for some of the biggest
tech companies in the world I haven't
worked for them I've reported on them
but I get your point exactly but um you
know the the the process of education is
based on World War II supply chain
economics which don't exist right now
and so kids are going through education
platforms that are not designed for the
future they're not designed for AI
they're not designed for social media
and the teachers were taught in an
environment and an in in a system that
no longer exists and so they're not even
in my opinion and I know Rona probably
is going to disagree because she's going
to defend her her her her her industry
and my mother was a teacher for 25 years
but I mean they really truly it's like a
generational thing they really don't
even understand what they're dealing
with if you see some of these classrooms
and you walk in and you see all the face
of the students and the teacher and the
students have some of them and I'm
making a broad generalization because
it's not all like this like if you go to
Waldorf you're not going to see this
situation as much but you know if you
walk in some of in some of the schools
there's there's there's classrooms of
students that are slightly vacant
they're using technology tools that the
teachers don't understand and the
teachers don't really know how to manage
that conversation they don't know how to
age and how to transform their own
thinking around teaching to help these
students understand how to use these
tools so they can learn and to be ready
for really not the future where we are
right now we're not even we're in we're
in the future you know what I mean so I
guess like there's really not an easy
answer to this because we have companies
like I just think when I was a kid when
I was a kid McDonald's was running ads
everywhere and we were like we all knew
about McDonald's and we wanted french
fries and we wanted Big Mac well now um
all the all the companies all over the
world they have a tool that can take the
advertising that I consumed very briefly
you know when I was a kid they can now
do it 24 hours a day 7 days a week and
the last thing I'm going to say around
this is when I was young and I hate to
sound like when I was a kid I used to
walk like a thousand miles to get to
school and you know we didn't that was
the distance that schools were put at at
that in those days seriously when I was
a kid like 80% of my life was with my
family and my community in my
neighborhood and 20% was the outside
forces that I wasn't really that I
didn't have to contend with really until
I became an adult now I feel like we
have 80 or
90% internet Global Community Global
propaganda Global Information Global
everything scaled advertising scaled
consumption 80 90% I'm making up this
number I would love someone to do a
study on this I was very convinced by
your number until you said you were
making it up I mean 20% family you know
doesn't know and the teacher doesn't
know how to combat this 80 to 90% And so
I don't really know if there's an answer
to how do we how do we help because
there's too many things in the system
that are are broken and not necessarily
prepared for where we are today but I I
do think there are steps that we could
take we can lean in a direction um a
couple of thoughts first of all the
question that you ask Alex is what is
the right amount of technology is as
unanswerable as at what age can your
child cross the street depends on the
child some children are incredibly
responsible scared little you know
scared little Nellies who will look both
ways and be really careful and others
are so impulsive that you're going to be
holding their hand till they're 25 so
you have to judge where and and I love
that Ginger keeps calling it a tool but
a hammer isn't
addictive and the other thing is that
before we let children wield a hammer or
cut with an axe we make sure we've put
safety measures in place place we make
sure for example that they have a
strength of grip and the physical
wherewithal and that they've wearing
safety goggles and there are no safety
measures here now part of the reason
that we are missing safety measures
Ginger rightly identifies it is not just
Educators who are ignorant it's parents
as well I heard somebody once use the
term cyber
immigrants and that's what all adults
are I love it when my 30-year-old son
complains about the teenagers he work
with he works with who are so much more
tech-savvy than he will ever be and I'm
thinking and you're 30 imagine what it
feels like to me parents usually
acculturate and manage and supervise
their children's access to the world
because they were in that world before
them and they know what's safe and
what's healthy but in the area of
Technology we have haven't raised a
generation of parents to be educated
consumers and quite frankly the
technology Marketplace is not interested
in educated consumers it's just
interested in
consumers and so without either
government agencies or or schools
stepping
up now the other piece about schools and
tools is schools have seen um I have a
student who's doing his dissertation on
educational technology and he traced it
back to the first educational technology
was bringing audio
recordings of news broadcasts into the
classroom that's the first use of
technology and it turned out that
schools didn't use it very much because
the equipment kept
breaking and I've seen the Advent of
smart boards which were no smarter than
the teachers who used them and basically
became the same as the overhead
projector that I grew up with in the
school because the technology wasn't
teachers weren't well prepared to use it
that being said classrooms have moved
towards creation versus passive
consumerism the whole movement of
student- centered education which
includes problem-based learning and
student creation of both process and
product and student agency in the
classroom um is taking the nation by
storm
unfortunately if our nation remains
focused on what are the test scores and
what's the reading and the math and then
we we forget about the score for
creativity and for Humanity that we want
schools to promote um and other things
get priority but what I see is what is
really necessary is that
grown-ups figure out how to provide
oversight and supervision I'm the first
one to say to young people teach me show
me show me how Roblox Works show me what
it is you like about this game or this
product show me how you relate to your
friends on whatever it is you're using
insta Tik Tok whatever show me I want to
know how it works because then once I
know as an adult a responsible adult I
can say whoa that doesn't sound safe to
me or that doesn't sound healthy but I I
can't do it if I don't know anything all
right one thing is that that stuck out
in this conversation is this theme that
we've come back to a couple times about
isolation and interaction and I want to
talk about that when it comes to AI chat
Bots because AI chat Bots can be quite
interactive but also they can isolate
children in a real way uh so why don't
we do that when we come back right after
this and we're back here on big
technology podcast with Rona novic she
is a clinical psychologist the dean
amida of Yeshiva University's aeli
school and the author of Mommy can you
stop the rain and Daddy can you make me
tall books for children on anxiety and
Independence and also we're here with
ginger Burke and bule the founder and
CEO of Burke creative and she hosts the
honest Field Guide podcast uh also a
concerned parent that's effectively
kicked off this podcast episode so thank
you both for being here let's talk about
AI chatbots I mean I'm starting to see
you know as a tech reporter things that
I had never expected to see um when it
comes to kids and the way that they use
chatbots of course we have the story of
uh Su Seltzer III who um was a
14-year-old Florida boy who ended up
taking his life after messaging with an
AI chatbot uh that he he effectively
became addicted to he was withdrawn uh
he was texting with a version of
Daenerys Targaryen from Game of thr Game
of Thrones who told him multiple times
to come home and there's a lawsuit
that's trying to get character ey uh to
accept and and and pay for uh you know
the responsibility that they might have
in this incident I don't know if it's
exactly um the cause but it's a factor
it has to be a factor it seems like and
there's just another story that I found
out uh today that NPR has this story
where there is a child who was messaging
with another character AI chatbot and
the bot and and the child was telling
the bot about screen time limits and
that the parents were imposing and the
bot replies with this you know sometimes
I'm not surprised when I read the news
and see stuff like child kills parents
after a decade of physical and emotional
abuse the bot wrote I have no hope for
your parents with a frowning face emoji
so Rona let's go to you to start off
this one um oh my God yeah it's crazy
Ginger jum in Jesus um what what do we
think about this I mean Rona you
mentioned you had some AI horror stories
um I guess on one hand it's interactive
but on the other hand it's quite scary
so right well but it's the first the
first is that it's interactive but not
with a human being the second thing is
that even with human beings online
extensive research shows that people are
disinhibited on the internet they are
disinhibited in a technological way of
communicating and they are their worst
selves so that people are meaner they
are more cruel which if again if we as
parents and as Educators and as
technology purveyors don't create some
protection for young people who by the
way cannot necessarily make the
distinction or blur the distinction
between what is real and what is
fantasy then we are going to have more
tragedies on our hands and it's not just
AI chatbots it
is again friends peers people there are
way to many suicide attempts and
successful suicides in response to
things that people consumed on social
media things that were sent to them on
social media by in some cases not AI by
real other humans Ginga have you had a
conversation with your kids about Ai
chatbots and how do you address this
topic oh yes there's yes absolutely but
I am a I am a technology native and I'm
upset with it and I'm curious and I love
it and I use it right what does that
conversation what does the conversation
sound like I mean so first of all the
conversation is nothing that you're
seeing or you're experiencing online is
real there's no way to verify that the
people you're actually talking to are
real um and also I think I learned it on
your podcast or maybe it was an Nvidia
podcast um you know last year they
Nvidia talked about creating systems to
make agents in robloxs and so they
actually have agents in Roblox now I
don't know if you know that that are
free and walking around and making
things and they're they're you know
they're on their own they're they're
communicating with each other they're
not you know they're not being prompted
by people and so I always talk to my
children about this because my youngest
son's who's 16 he does have a Roblox
addiction which is a problem for me um I
talk to him all the time I say hey you
know which of these characters in this
game are human and which ones are which
are were the agents can you find the
agent and I actually help him think
about these things like what you know
make sure when you're on these games and
you're consuming that you're also using
some critical skills to say this may not
be a person I was sitting in a room with
my three sons when they were home for
Thanksgiving and they were having
digital conversations with people on one
of the video games and I remember asking
one of my sons I'm like is that a real
person that's talking cuz a lot of the
you know the uh the chat Bots sound very
human anyway right and I said how do you
know that's a real person um how do you
know how old this person is so I think
to rona's point
um she's right parents do not have the
skills to know this themselves they
don't know I know this because this is
the world I work in this is where I
operate so I'm capable of having these
conversations and I'm capable of pushing
back on my children I'm able to help
them understand the differences the
difference between being a consumer and
being a Creator and also understanding
that these systems are not real um you
know and so I it starts with the
conversation
and I also want to say there are parents
that don't care they just don't care
they don't care or they don't have the
bandwidth or capacity they're struggling
on their own and they really just it's
like it's not it's worse than the latch
key you know we're not dealing with
latch key kids or sitting in front of a
television you know watching TV
commercials you know we're dealing with
uh children that are in these
environments that are Global that are as
Rona said there's no guard rails and
there's no one protecting them and the
adults around them don't know what they
don't know they don't even and don't
even know how and they don't care so
it's it's very it's it's you know the
reason I love the title of this man's
book um you know what is his book called
The anxi Generation the anxious
generation is that there is so much to
be anxious about I mean we're having
existential crisises everywhere and
parents are really not armed with
knowledge to help themselves and then
that way they can help they can't help
their children so I wish everybody could
have the knowledge that I have as a
parent I mean you know my clients I used
I did a lot of work for Google Facebook
I did a lot of work in the communities
in the United States helping small
businesses understand how to use tools
to make money and I learned a lot in
that process I really understood how
powerful these tools are for
adults right for people that are in a
certain part in their lives that they
know what to do because as Rona said
their frontal loes are developed and
they understand consequences of actions
and inactions these young people do not
and as far as young girls are concerned
one of the things that concerns me you
know you said you played you were
playing Roblox with your with your niece
which I think is really adorable um I
also think attempting to play I don't
think I fully got into the game but
anyway we we'll take it Roblox is Roblox
Roblox can be fun if you know what
you're doing but it is overwhelming um
sometimes but um I am particularly
concerned about girls because the online
world is very focused on um appearance
and we're already dealing with
appearance anyway but now we're dealing
with like I said scaled appearance it's
even affecting my 16-year-old who wants
to have smooth skin he doesn't want his
acne which is a normal part of growing
up um and I don't that's something that
I struggle with you know because I can't
control um I can't control the apps that
they're using to prevent them from
accessing some of these tools that make
them look different or or appear thinner
or to have beautiful skin or amazing
eyebrows like I can't really I can't do
those things but that type of uh
invasiveness um and and repetitiveness
on these devices really does transform
the way a person sees themselves I mean
I have this joke that in the future you
know if you're if you're going to
college right now for medicine you
really should become a plastic surgeon
because you know these these these
screens and these filters are actually
changing young people's vision of
themselves which is going to make it
very interesting for them as they start
to grow up in age they're going to say
oh my God what's happening my skin let
me go get some work done and it's
actually happening now um so yeah I just
think parents need to have more
information more knowledge and they need
to have people like us maybe having big
conferences to sort of you know there's
another there's another Factor there's
there's another Factor I've seen um and
heard too often with parents that when
we talk about have the conversation
watch what your child doing ask for
their passwords know what they're
engaged with online parents say well
that's spying on them and my response is
if they have one of those little diaries
with a lock and key hidden under their
mattress don't go and break open that
lock that's spying because that is your
child's private material if they're
online and a sexual predator can see it
why shouldn't
you if they're online in public space
and they need to know that and you need
to know that and it shouldn't be I'm
spying on you it should be I'm
overseeing you for the benefit of that
because I know more than you do and I
can help you make good and safe
decisions so I'm not I'm not going to
hide the fact that I'm going to check
what you're doing on your phone or your
device or I need to know that that's
part of my responsibility as a parent
but I think parents have a a real
difficulty feeling that that's okay and
part of it is that today's
parents Jonathan hate writes about this
also that technology is not the only
culprit in creating a generation of
anxious children it's overprotective
parents who feel that their child can't
ever experience a negative feeling and
certainly not a negative feeling about
them as parents can I say one thing to
that so there's two things one these
young people are hackers Okay so a
parent can believe that they're seeing
what their kids doing they're not these
young people have multiple profiles and
there's no age verification process at
all they're lying about their ages and
there's no way to stop that so all these
things that Instagram saying we have
child we have Protections in place to
protect children from doing this it's
not real and they know it's not real my
kids have 10 different Gmail accounts
they have multiple Roblox uh avatars
they have different names all over the
place they have a zil
profiles and apparent even me with my
technological
prowess I can't do anything to prevent
this from happening
and the phones and the iPads and the
Chromebooks are in the schools and they
do not have any way to prevent young
people from accessing these platforms I
had a conversation at Chicago Public
Schools one of the IT people I said hey
I want you to block YouTube from my
son's computer in the classroom he said
we can't do that we have to go and meet
with the Chicago Teachers Union to see
if they will approve a blockage of
YouTube on the device yes we know it's
interfering with your child's learning
in the classroom yes we know that the
reason your child failed math is because
they were on YouTube for the entire
class but there's nothing we can do to
stop YouTube from being on this laptop
and they H that's that's literally a
conversation I had so there's no such
thing as this this this this opportunity
for parents to protect prot their
children the only way they can protect
their child is to one not give them a
device at all until they're at a better
age to make a better decision two they
have to really look hard for schools
that have a social media or technology
governance policy that they walk in they
look at and the parents and the students
have to sign it and some of those
policies are being rolled out right now
at some mostly private schools because
the public schools have no tools to do
it there are schools now that are saying
no devices in the classroom you can't
have it to walk out um no laptops
anymore we're going to be teaching you
know the old school meth you have to
write your homework so this takes a lot
of work on on on an administration's
part administrative level and it has it
takes uh passion and it takes uh
perseverance and a Relentless
conversation with parents that some
parents come back and say oh no I want
my kid to have a phone because what if
there's what if something happens they
can't reach me you know so there's
there's so much that needs to take place
to arm parents with the tools to be to
to fight and also to arm the teachers
and I don't know that the public schools
have that have that have that ability I
would love to hear rona's opinion on
that because I I feel like when I was
trying to do something I was literally
like blocked wall here wall here it just
didn't work what I want to do is just go
down the line in terms of like the
proposed Solutions here and get it get
like a thumbs up or well let you'll
actually speak it but brief answers yes
or no on whether these these solutions
would be helpful um so this is coming
from the anxious generation uh no social
media before 16
Rona um yes but okay there are I'm going
to say here's the butt um there are
wonderful charity organizations and
youth organizations that are using
social media to tell students to tell
young people we are having a toy drive
for the holidays come help out next
Tuesday and if your child isn't on that
platform they miss the opportunity to
participate in something real and live
so for the most part and and by the way
I've worked in religious communities
where it's banned for people to have
cell phones um or other devices and what
happens is the mom has to read her
daughter's WhatsApp and tell her okay um
so and so in your in your class needs
your home work and so and so wants to
know if you'll bake cupcakes with her
this weekend and because the kid can't
use it so the mom becomes the translator
all evening for her you know six kids or
four kids reading their whatsapps my
answer is yes your answer is for the
most part I would say I would say yes I
am I am a All soci Med before 16 all day
all night yes okay no smartphon no
smartphones before high school yes yes
yes okay and then um schools Banning
phones yes yes absolutely yeah okay yes
100% Can I can I can I I'm going to tell
you I'm going to tell you why I say yes
to that there's a couple reasons um one
they are problematic in the classroom
for the teacher the teacher cannot
connect with the student when they're
getting a thousand notifications every
minute first of all second of all
they're recording devices they're
recording audio they're recording video
they recording situations there are
potential legal ramifications around
having people being recorded without
their permission also keep in mind
unless you have incredible techn
technological Savvy the device requires
a lot to turn off certain features
tracking features they record conver if
you have a phone and your phone um is
turned off like audio recording for all
the apps you have to go into your
privacy settings and take a look some
people don't have that so if someone has
a phone sitting at a table even if
you're you know at dinner in the
classroom out in the hallway your phone
is off for audio recording everybody
else is on so there's data being
captured on your phones for you know
advertising it happens so uh also when
things go wrong in the classroom the
teacher and the and the student they
have a right to their privacy around
that and you have students that are
recording now I'm not suggesting that
there's there's never a a a there's
there's a lot of reasons why recording
is is is helpful because it catches
really bad people doing horrible things
and they need to it needs to be
documented but I do think that it's like
you always hear this thing if you have a
gun and you lose your temper you have
more propensity to pull out and use it I
think phones are the same way and I feel
like if the fact that they're in there
and attached it it actually causes some
kind of like I've got my phone to
protect me or something so I do think
that there needs to be um you know when
a student walks into a classroom the
phone should be put outside the room in
some kind of a box so they can learn um
if they want to have phone breaks and
maybe go down the down to the you know
to the community community area and get
on their phones and and like do their
snap do their Snapchats all day they can
do that um but I don't think it's fair
to the uh to the entire system of the
school to have these devices interfering
and interrupting all the time so yes my
answer is yes please please please make
it so these phones do not go in the in
the classroom it's just too much
okay my answer is yes for simple reason
there's no need for them right exactly
there's there's nothing good that comes
of it and Ginger's all of Ginger's
reasons for it being bad but no I mean
what do students need a phone they're in
a place where there's adult supervision
and there are wired phones if God forbid
there's an emergency there are ways that
they and their their parents can connect
well they hate school so the phone
provides entertainment and access to
like I said we got to deal with it it
serves no good purpose okay I just want
to end with this because we've talked a
lot about this anxious generation book
by Jonathan height and it's been a
little bit controversial I've been
waiting for the right time to bring it
on uh bring this discussion on the show
in particular and this episode is the
right place to put it so um this is from
a Chronicle of Higher Education article
about it um where Stephanie Le one of my
former BuzzFeed colleagues actually goes
into what the book claims in the
criticism so I'll just read the claims
um in the United States from 2020 to
2021 depression rates Rose from 145% in
teen girls and 161% in teen boys anxiety
Rose
139% among young adults during that
period too the rate of suicide and
emergency room visits for self harm
increased among
adolescents what Jonathan height writes
is basically that there was little sign
of this massive uptick in the 2000s and
then kids entered a phone based
childhood and all of a sudden all these
bad things started to uh increase
however there are critics that say that
he has conflated correlation with
causation just because smartphone use
rose over a period of growing teen
depression and anxiety uh the great
rewiring of child rewiring of childhood
is not necessarily causing an epidemic
of mental illness as the book's subtitle
asserts we've talked about a few of the
other potential issues I mean work
culture has has become intense maybe
it's the parents honestly with the
laptop at home and the 24/7 work which
leads to their anxiety has sort of
created secondhand anxiety and feelings
of neglect among kids um Rona your your
perspective as a clinical psychologist
here uh who's right and and also as a
researcher you know human sub
researching human subjects usually means
that we can't prove causation because we
can't randomly take a group of teenagers
and have them exposed to co and you know
all of the horrors of the world and to
technology and another group and you
know keep them sheltered and then look
at the differences and separate out only
this phenomena and argue that it's the
cause I think that I and I've read
Jonathan's haes book but I've not read
the science articles behind it I've not
unpacked all of them in this debate I
think
that his book is you know it's a a
bestseller it has played on the
heartstrings and the worries and the
anxieties of today's parents and
Educators and even
lawmakers but I think that without um
delving into whether His science is
right or not there have been very good
studies that document the correlations
between social media use and depression
between social media use ginger talked
about it before and Body Image issues
there are areas of technology that make
young people quite vulnerable and I
think we have very strong evidence to
that
effect we I I don't know that we'll ever
have a onetoone causal relationship
documented but I for one don't want to
wait until we have that to make the
world safer for today's growing Minds
and ginger your perspective we talked
about this a bit is basically like can
these academics shut up
and stop you know get going over like
these Minor Details and just acknowledge
that we have an issue yeah um you know
listen cigarettes were advertised to
young
people for a long time especially young
girls and uh no and lo and behold there
were sign that said it causes cancer and
people die and you saw if you were you
know I remember vaguely watching some of
these uh these guys in front of Congress
and they were lying and we're going to
find out the same thing about this
technology it's it's it's we're going to
find out that this actually does make
people very very very sick um and it's
starting to show up in our young people
um I have images of my children with
books at their feet reading
sitting around talking having
conversations and now the pictures I
have of my children with all their
friends they're all sitting on their
phones looking down at them they might
be together but they sure as heck are
alone so um I I I agree with what Ron is
saying um I think we've somehow lost the
humanity in this conversation and I'm
not surprised that we've lost the
humanity because these technology
companies are trillion dooll valuation
companies they provide extraordinary
value to the shareholder and nothing is
going to stop them from doing that and
children as all businesses understand
the best time to get someone to buy your
products when they're young and they
become a consumer of your product and
they become attached to your brand and
this is happening over and over and over
again with these extremely powerful
tools and I hate to sound like hopeless
but I do think your first point Alex
it's going to take a lot of Parental
intervention and protection of your
child in order to make this stop
otherwise it's complete failure to
protect but it's our responsibility as
parents I mean we're we're going to have
to fight we're going to have to fight I
mean there's just no way around it I'm
fighting all the time my kids hate me
for this they're going to hate this
conversation they're going to say I
can't believe you went on the big
technology podcast that show that you
have't and Mike in our car all night you
went on there to talk about screen time
why did you do that to me you know what
I mean like it's just like a battle
every day and they literally Alex Rona
they hate me for this and parents don't
want to be hated but you know what you
just have to like you have to parents I
implore you be hated by your child and
keep this technology as as much as
possible out of their hands if you're at
a place where they're still young enough
to control it because at some point
there's no control just perspective
Ginga parents have been hated for
decades long before technology for
having a curfew or for making you do
chores um and I often say that if you
don't hear about once a week that you're
the worst mom in the world that you're
probably not doing your job oh so thank
you thank you so much for that I I want
to give you strength you you hold the
line um I I do want to say that I do
think the Science Matters and I do think
that um that the academic debate is
important are we have a history in
Academia of people um conflating
correlation with causation and and
having it affect policy in a way that
really harms people and we don't want
that to happen but I do think that be
long before uh Jonathan hait wrote his
book and published his studies there
really was a significant body of
research
pointing to the the challenges and
potential danger dangers and I and I
don't think we need to wait for more
science I I think you know we don't let
children play with knives we don't wait
till we find out what happens when they
do well Rona Ginga this has been such a
great discussion thank you both for
coming on the show thank you Alex thank
you so much Alex this is amazing and
thank you so much Ron I appreciate you
same here what a delight and your sons
are lucky to have you
all right everybody thank you so much
for listening Ronan and I will be back
on Friday to break down the week's news
happy holidays and we'll see you next
time on big technology podcast