Sora 2 & AI’s Slop Era, Death Of The Creator Economy?, Apple’s SmartGlasses Roadmap

Channel: Alex Kantrowitz

Published at: 2025-10-04

YouTube video id: JtYECfE7g5w

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtYECfE7g5w

The gates of content hell are open as
OpenAI's Sora 2 debuts with ultra
realistic AI slop and Apple has elevated
its smart glasses plan and they could be
coming soon. That's coming up on a Big
Technology Podcast Friday edition with
TechCrunch senior AI reporter Max Zeff
right after this. Welcome to Big
Technology Podcast Friday edition where
we break down the news with our
traditional, coolheaded and nuanced
approach. Today we have Techrunch senior
AI reporter Max Zeff joining us to talk
about everything AI slop. There's so
much slop, but maybe it turns into
something. We'll talk about how it might
challenge the creator economy. We'll
also talk about Apple smart glasses and
the fact that it's speeding it up in the
road map and plenty more. Uh Max, great
to see you. Welcome to the show.
>> Great to be here. Longtime listener.
>> Definitely. Well, we are we always uh
talk about your stories on the show. Uh
here is a hint for listeners and
viewers. When you hear me cite a
Techrunch story, it's almost always
Max's. Uh and Max, we're going to get
into yours because you have some new
reporting on the uh state of OpenAI
after this Sorro 2 launch and how some
of the employees there are trying to
figure out what it means for the
company. But let's start off talking
about Sora 2. Uh for those who don't
know, Sora 2 is OpenAI's new video
generator which they've now included in
an app called uh Sora which is basically
meant to rival Tik Tok and YouTube. This
is from the Wall Street Journal. OpenAI
is squaring up to Tik Tok, Google's
YouTube and meta platforms with a new
social media apps for its AI video
generator that allows users to create
highdefinition video clips with audio
from text prompts. Users can upload
short clips of themselves and insert
them into Sora generated worlds
describing the idea, style, and scene
they want to see. They can also connect
with other users watching and commenting
on their content. Uh Max, just first
question for you. We've we're now a
couple days into this Sora Madness. It's
the number one app on the app store. Uh
how big do you expect this to get?
>> Yeah, I mean I could see this taking off
quite significantly. I think in the last
year we've really seen AI generated
images and videos uh really take over
regular social feeds. And I think the
idea here from OpenAI is let's capture
some of that growth on one of our own
platforms. And while it sounds terrible
and you know at first it kind of makes
you cringe at the idea of a completely
AI generated feed, it's been
surprisingly compelling I think to a lot
of people as as you can see by the
growth on the app store and just my own
personal experience. You go on there and
it's like this is terrible and I it's
like you can't take your eyes away. It's
like watching a car crash on the side of
the road.
>> Yeah. Yeah, I think it's worth pausing
just to talk about how realistic these
videos are. I watched one of Sam Alman
on the release day uh running around
opening eye headquarters with a bullhorn
telling them to get to the live stream.
In the first few seconds, uh this was
like one of my first Sora 2 videos that
I had seen. I was just like, that's
real. And I was like, wait a second,
that's not real. And then I really uh
got mad at myself this week because a
friend of mine uh posted a video of Jake
Paul uh coming to their book signing and
uh you know my friend signing a book and
handing it to a very happy Jake Paul.
And these videos are so good that your
brain doesn't process the fact that
they're AI slop at first. And I was like
you know when you see this stuff you go
through these uh mechanations in your
mind of like how did that happen? and I
didn't know that he had a book. And then
I was like, "Oh my god, that's Sora."
Like, it's crazy.
>> Yeah. There was a really interesting
take from a former OpenAI employee, uh,
Miles Brundage, who kind of came out and
said that, you know, we're getting into
this era of AI generated video feeds.
And it's worth noting that not all AI
slop is created equal, which I thought
was a surprisingly thoughtful take about
something that seems uh at its face
really kind of scary. But uh I think
he's right. I mean I think as we saw
with Meta's Vibes app last week um
that's Meta's Tik Tok competitor that's
full of AI generated videos and that
product doesn't let you make videos of
yourself or your friends. And I think
the reaction was people were like, well,
what is this? What do I do with this?
Whereas with OpenAI's product, it's
immediately become really compelling
because people can see themselves in it.
They can see other people they know. And
and that seems to be a really key detail
here that is a big differentiator.
>> You get the sense that two things
happened. First of all, Meta thought
that uh Meta must have gotten word that
Opening Eye was going to release this
and then rushed out vibes. U and I think
the other broader picture is people
started to question why Mark Zuckerberg
was sinking so many billions of dollars
uh into AI research and recently going
on this hiring spree of AI researchers.
I think it's worth noting that a lot of
the researchers that he poached were
working on multimedia formats, audio,
video, images. And you see, I think this
week is the first time it's really come
into focus that this could actually
challenge um the standard human created
content feeds. And that's why it's like
a nine alarm fire inside Meta HQ right
now.
>> Yeah. I mean, I think that this is the
change that people have been talking
about for a long time. I think it was
hard to see for a while why a company
like OpenAI was threatening to meta. And
I think this week you see why. I mean, I
think that this is very clear evidence
that there is something here. I don't
think that, you know, this product is
necessarily the final version of it. I'm
not sure if it has going to have a great
impact on society at its, you know, at
the net. But I I do think that this is
compelling and a lot of people spent a
lot more time on the Sora app in the
last week than they did on threads or
blue sky. And there's something to be
said for that alone.
We had a celebration for 5 years of big
technology podcast this week in
collaboration with human ventures. they
hosted here in New York and we gathered
a bunch of people around and we were
talking about this and uh what the
future is going to look like and Ranjan
Roy who's usually here on Fridays told
the story that he tells on the show so
often about how his Facebook feed had
become just a feed of uh AI slop and
people commenting on it. And I think
there had been some questions about um
why Mark Zuckerberg and Facebook uh were
allowing the feed to fill with like
shrimp Jesus. Uh and again this this
week is like bringing it into focus that
that it is something that is going to be
maybe already is a very engaging uh
content format and if you are the
engagement app which is or the
engagement company which Meta is, you
can't really let another company run
away with it and maybe they already are
seeing uh OpenAI run away with it.
Yeah, I I I do have real concerns about
what the impact is on people who use
social media and society for something
like this. I think that there's a sense
to me of, you know, the these apps you
really at their core are supposed to be
about connecting you to other people.
And I think we've seen all the ways in
the last, you know, two decades of how
that's not really the case and how they
really are optimized to keep you on the
platform. Um, I think there's a big
question for OpenAI here of what they
really choose to optimize for in this
experience. I think we've seen some good
players emerge in the social media space
like a blue sky that doesn't seem to be
focused on getting people to, you know,
just spend as much time as possible on
the platform all the time. That said, I
think it limits their growth. And I
think Open is a very ambitious company.
I think there's a real chance here that,
you know, they are pushed by some of the
incentives that social media companies
have been pushed by for, you know, the
last 20 years.
But it it is different and I think it's
worth taking this moment to just pause
uh and talk a little bit about the
underlying technology and how impressive
it is and why to me at least this is not
just OpenAI creating a a frivolous uh
you know vapid social media app but um
how this might be the next point along a
line of research that needs to get done
to improve this technology. There's been
so much talk about AI's need to
understand the world and people have
talked about world models, the
understanding of physics, understanding
of what happens beyond uh the LLM. And
there was an interesting point here um
that a user on Twitter or X made that um
sort of puts opening eyes lofty
ambitions uh into contrast with what it
shipped Sam Alman two weeks ago. We need
$7 trillion and 10 gawatt to cure
cancer. Sam Alman today we are launching
AI slot videos marketed as personalized
ads. Uh Sam Alman chimed in. He said I
get the vibe here but we do mostly need
the capital to build AI that can do
science and for sure we are focused on
AGI and with almost half sorry with
almost all of our research effort. It's
also nice to show people cool new tech
products along the way make them smile
and hopefully make uh some money given
all the compute that we need. When we
launched Chat GPT, there was a lot of
who needs this and where is AGI. Reality
is nuanced when it comes to optimal
trajectories for a company. Just this
line about the the the launch of Chacht,
who needs this and where is AGI, I I
just think it's it's important. I mean,
this is sort of the key the key um part
of Sam's statement. And I'm not not here
to be like uh Baghdad Bob for for Sam.
Uh but I will say that when you get this
stuff starting to understand physics,
you're just a step closer to I think uh
the end goals. And Chhat GPT of course
like seemed like a little toy at first,
but obviously has emerged into something
more. And uh I get this the criticism,
but I tend to side with Sam on this one.
What do you think, Max?
>> Yeah, I think it's I think it's a tough
call. I I think I agree with Sam in some
ways that he he's right that chat GPT it
wasn't really understood at first how
this really was going to be a vehicle
for a lot of people to use AI and a lot
of people to actually get the benefits
of AI and I think we've completely seen
that play out in the last few years. I
think it's a little less clear to me how
Sora gives gives people the benefits of
AI world models in the same way. I
totally agree that the underlying
technology is really impressive. I mean,
when the first Sora came out, I think
last year, it blew people away just with
how realistic the videos were, with how
accurate it could get certain details.
Um, and this one is objectively better.
And I I think it's impossible to argue
that there hasn't been a great leap in
performance of the AI video models in
the last year or two. Um, but chat GBT
at its core is about helping people.
That is I I do actually take OpenAI at
its face when it says that it optimizes
chat GPT to be helpful and not to just
keep users in, you know, the these
engagement loops. Um, I do think that I
go to Chat JPT all the time to get an
answer, I get it, and then I get off the
app. I think with Sora, it does feel to
me like it is I mean, he said it pretty
plainly. It's it's about entertaining
people. It's about, you know, it's
supposed to be fun. And I think that
these are very different products. And
while I agree that there's something to
be said for OpenAI's ability to make
products to fund uh you know, its AGI
efforts, I think that it's worth noting
that he he's venturing into a very
different space than he's been in
before.
>> Okay. Let me talk a little bit about
what grounded my comments and then we're
going to actually talk a little bit
about your reporting uh that has OpenAI
employees basically expressing similar
concerns. To me, the thing that I've
heard from AI researchers is you really
want AI to be able to predict what's
going to happen in the world. Uh because
when it can predict then it can plan and
predicting and planning are core parts
of intelligence. Now the thing about uh
chat is or yeah text is it's somewhat
easier to predict the next word uh than
it is to like let's say and this is a
Yanukun example hold up a pen and drop
it and predict where it's going to go
because there's seemingly infinite
possibilities. So when this technology
gets better at understanding like a
person what a person walking on a
sidewalk does um then that's a step
forward in its ability to predict and
then plan. Um and so the underlying
maybe not the social app but the
underlying advances that they're working
on here to me uh seem like an important
step forward but you I could be getting
over my skis here. So so what's your
thought on that Max?
>> I think you're right. I mean I I agree
that world models are an important next
step for AI. Um there was just a viral
podcast where a famous AI researcher
Richard Sutton went on the Dwaresh Patel
podcast and uh there was this really
fascinating argument about how LLMs
today uh they don't have a model about
the world. I mean they can predict the
next word but they can't you know
predict the state of the world and and
you know they can't predict uh they
can't update their mental model about
the world based on interacting with it
and I thought it was fascinating
conversation I would encourage people to
check it out um but it it was really I
think you know this is something that
Yan Lun has been like you mentioned
talking about for a long time which is
that you know world models are really a
key to kind of a greater intelligence um
and greater ability to predict the
world. So I do think that it's important
for OpenAI and these AI labs to advance
the world models. Uh but yeah, I think
the application is really the the key
part here.
Okay. Um so briefly, do you so your your
perspective is the advances in video
that we're seeing might advance world
models or does advance this concept of a
world model? Uh but just the the feed is
is where you start to feel a little
queasy.
>> Yes, 100%. I I think it is like you know
you can take a good technology and use
it for the wrong thing. I think is my
feeling and I just wonder if this is
that.
>> Okay.
Yeah. And you had some reporting that
shows that even people within OpenAI are
concerned there. And I think this is a
great place to to focus and stop for a
moment. Um here's your story. Several
current and former OpenAI researchers
are speaking out over the company's
first foray into social media. AI based
feeds are scary, said OpenAI
pre-training researcher John Halman in a
post on XX. Um, we're going to do our
best to make sure AI helps and does not
hurt humanity. I mean, where have we
heard that before? You had actually
multiple uh current OpenAI employees
being like, uh, I don't know about this.
That's that doesn't happen too often in
a major launch. So talk about the
significance of that.
>> Yeah, I think the level of kind of
concern expressed by a lot of OpenAI
researchers at the launch of this
product felt very unique to me uh in a
way that you don't usually see. Usually
when an AI company launches a product,
everyone is very gung-ho about it.
Everyone is really excited. And I think
this time just felt a little different.
Um I think all I think a lot of
researchers at OpenAI were very aware
that their company was not just
launching a new product. It's not a new
feature in chat GPT. This is social
media app. This is unchartered territory
for OpenAI. And I think that raised a
lot of concerns for people. I mean,
something, you know, I I've heard over
and over from AI executives, and I'm
sure you've heard the same, Alex, is
just, you know, they all talk about how
we don't want to repeat the mistakes of
the social media era. And I believe a
lot of the researchers working at these
labs don't want to do that. I think a
lot of them grew up in an era where
people were addicted to social media. uh
and I think a lot of them don't want to
create the same kind of dynamic with the
products that they build. Um, but I I do
think that just the incentives of
running a social media platform are
sometimes going to be very uh
intoxicating and strong and you know I
don't think Meta exactly set out to
build a you know addictive uh platform
but that's what you do when you need to
make the user count grow up and you need
to make the ad revenue grow up. So I
think that that's what I heard from a
lot of employees just like we have to be
really careful here
>> right and I think it's we should note
head of uh product at anthropic
Instagram founder head of product at
openai
uh former head of uh product at
Instagram uh person who's running what
all consumer applications at uh openai
is also uh someone who's come from
Facebook um It it I definitely it's
interesting to me to see these two
cultures merge, right, which is like the
typical Silicon Valley growth culture
and this newer researchoriented AI
culture uh and effectively, you know, we
can see the conflicts happening within
the companies as they go.
Yeah, I mean this is something that's
come up with OpenAI time and time again
where there's this tension at the
company where it is the world's fastest
growing consumer business and it is also
an AI research lab where a lot of the
people joined to chase this lofty
mission of developing AGI that benefits
humanity and make sure that all of that
goes safely and goes well. And I think
those things have constantly been uh
just kind of pushing at each other uh
for the last several years. I mean, when
Sam Alman was fired a few years ago,
that was, you know, kind of a key
consideration uh there. And I think that
what I heard from a former employee that
was really interesting was they said
that, you know, OpenAI really the the
consumer business funds the mission. I
mean, that's how a lot of people see it.
where it's like, you know, building chat
GPT into this massive product makes
billions of dollars that can go towards
AI research that otherwise wouldn't. And
I think that's true. You know, to build
AGI, you probably need to be an enormous
company. But I think there's a real
question of at what point does OpenAI
say no to a money-making endeavor? At at
what point does OpenAI reject the idea
of you know adding more users to its
platform for the sake of its mission? Um
I think that it is I my take about the
SO app is I don't think that OpenAI is
setting itself up for success with this
because they are opening themselves up
to you know the the kind of incentives
of a social media app
>> right yeah you asked that question in
your story. At what point does OpenAI's
consumer business overtake its nonprofit
mission? Uh I I think it's already
there. So, uh but anyway, we can leave
that open since you left it open as as a
question in your story. I won't, you
know, put you on the spot on that one.
Um but yeah, it's a valid valid concern
and you know, I think we can both agree
that this is not just uh a video
generation technology. It's a social
app. And it does sort of then put forth
this really interesting question which
is what's going to happen to the creator
economy. I'm writing about this in big
technology this week. It'll probably
come out right before our our episode
comes out. But u you have this you know
creator economy is kind of a misnomer.
There's only a small amount of people
that are able to um work full-time
creating content on the internet. That
being said, u some of the people who
have watched this have said basically
like this puts uh creators right in the
crosshairs of AI. And in fact, I had a I
guest hosted the Twit podcast over the
weekend and I had a great quote from one
of our panelists, Ario of Architecture
Media. He said, "The creators are all
high in the hog right now, but I would
be thinking they're one of the first
things that could be totally annihilated
by AI." I think it's worth taking a
minute to talk about this because you
have this new technology, a new app.
It's obviously very engaging, number one
in the app store, but instead of the
painstaking process of creating content
online, you could just prompt it. So,
what do you think this means for the
creator economy, Max?
>> Yeah, it's really a interesting
question. And I mean I think that people
said some version of this for writers
when chat GPT came out that you know why
would I hire a freelance journalist to
write something if I could just ask chat
to write it and I mean certainly there
are countless websites out there with
articles uh written by chatpt now. Uh so
to some extent that's proven to be true.
Uh and yet uh Alex we we still can make
a living doing what we do. So I think
what have we learned from the text
version of this story that's already
played out is that people value the
human touch and the human taste and
judgment um and they value kind of a
professional's opinion uh you know on
certain topics that has become actually
I think more valuable in the AI era and
I think that was something that a lot of
people missed when chat GPT first came
out which is that uh it actually made
really highquality human content more
valuable
Um, I wouldn't be surprised if a similar
thing happens with the creator economy.
Like I think that we will see just more
content in general as a result of these
AI video models and Sora. Um, and I
think that it probably does make it
harder for content creators to stand
out. It probably, you know, advertisers
are looking at these AI video models and
going, "Huh, that's pretty interesting.
um should I, you know, maybe put some of
my revenue or my my ad spend towards
that instead? Um, but I think that
there's creators out there who have a
real relationship with their audiences.
Um, and the audiences care about what
they have to say in the same way that
people care about what journalists have
to say, uh, their favorite ones at
least. And I think that that's kind of
how I expect this to go um, in all of
the industries that AI will touch. But I
don't know, Alex, I'm curious to hear
what what you found talking to uh some
people in the space.
>> Yes. So, I actually have this like list
that I it's basically my outline for my
story of all the reasons why the creator
economy uh won't go away. And okay, I
think you've touched on a couple of
them. It will change though in some
ways. But, um I would say like the first
thing that I put on the list, which is
somewhat corny and cliche, is just the
word authenticity. And I think that when
people are saying the creator economy is
going to go away, they might be thinking
of these like adventure videos on
YouTube or like um some others. I don't
know. But I think they missing the fact
that the reason why the creator economy
or whatever it is emerged is because
people wanted a more authentic
alternative to let's say the mass media.
And so they were able to have this
connection in some ways with online
creators and that powered the creator
economy. So I think that you cannot
replace that authenticity with uh with
uh synthetic media. You just can't. Um
it it's impossible to create. I think I
could be proven wrong over time. Uh but
I think that's impossible to create. The
other side of it is um that that
basically the reason why you would tune
into someone is for new insights or
ideas or information. And even if you
could generate amazing videos, uh you're
just recycling what exists and you lose
that uh you know potential to gain those
new insights and information uh or or
even you know uh unique new
entertainment. I think so. Um, so to me
that is that is uh two of the main
reasons why I think uh the creator
economy is not going away. Now, um I do
think it's going to change because there
are some things that are just going to
be commoditized. Um and I'll just say
it. I think that if you're a creator
that's been making money on good looks,
you might be in trouble. uh you might
now see an a AI there already are AI
versions of people who are doing like
thirst trap uh content and they're going
to they're going to commoditize that. So
also this just sort of like um there's a
lot of like amorphous uh mid content out
there that maybe if you filled a niche
you can make a living, you probably
won't be able to do that anymore. So
that's kind of my read on it.
>> I mean I think that's a fair point.
Right. I mean, I think that that's kind
of the flip side of what I was just
talking about with the journalism
conversation of, you know, I think that
a lot of the uh websites that made a
business on aggregation of just taking
other reporting and kind of repackaging
it uh without adding some unique
analysis or you know new reporting to
it. Uh they that largely can be done by
AI. Um, and I think that that's what uh,
you know, that kind of I'm not trying to
say that's lower quality. I mean, I've
done a fair amount of that in my career,
but like I think that that is a part of
journalism that is kind of going away in
the AI era. And, you know, I think I
could totally see a similar thing
happening in the creator economy. I will
say I'm curious what you think about
kind of, you know, obviously I mean the
creator economy is not held up by Tik
Tok and Instagram paying out these
creators. It's held up by like AG1, like
these like, you know, massive
advertisers that like will, you know,
just like dole out money to the
creators. And I'm not sure if they're,
you know, going to want to put their ads
in Sora or something, you know, like
like I think that that kind of source of
revenue seems pretty stable if you're a
creator. But I'm curious what you think.
>> Oh, I disagree on that one. I think
advertisers are very simple animals. If
there's attention, they will pay for
people's attention. So, even if it's a
feed of AI slop, if OpenAI can somehow
win millions and millions of users uh
over, then uh AG1 will will be right
there and work out some deal to sell
their uh very healthy supplements and
all the other things. So, uh, AG1, if
you're listening, big technolog is open
for business, so, uh, we'll be human
until we're not, uh, so let's talk.
Okay. But that that's basically my take
on that front.
>> That that no, that makes sense. I mean,
that you totally could be right. And I
mean, Mark Zuckerberg has his idea
about, you know, automating all AI uh,
all the whole ad process with AI that,
uh, you know, it's been talked about,
you know, a few weeks ago. And uh you
know I think a lot of advertisers ears
maybe perked up and and maybe they
cringed a little bit at that thought.
But um yeah I I guess we'll have to see.
I do think that there is some value in
like your attention is deeper when
you're watching a creator that you love.
So maybe that will you know prove to be
resilient in this era. But I guess we'll
see.
>> Yeah. I don't want to be the gloom and
doom on the creator economy ad thing,
but um ultimately like they the
advertisers back it out like they're
they're smart. They will see like um
what's leading to sales, what's not uh
and then just keep investing uh more in
that. May maybe who knows the meta can
tune feeds in ways or open eye will tune
feeds in ways that will make people more
susceptible to uh this type of
advertising. It's it's it's a it's an
interesting world. And by the way,
speaking of automation, I I want to
bring this point up before we move on
from this. Um there's a concept in
artificial intelligence called
reinforcement learning where like you
give the AI a goal and it sort of makes
a bunch of attempts and uh then you know
basically tries to accomplish that goal
and then realizes what to optimize for.
I I had a thought that could we end up
seeing so so while I think the creator
economy is going to stay, could we end
up seeing AI creators emerge where
companies basically give bots this goal
of like being mega influencers, allow
them to create lots of accounts and then
just sort of reinforce based off of the
comments and likes and shares and
follows. Uh, and so we end up seeing a
an AI creator force that will crush any
human attempt to be uh to be better than
it just because of its ability to
basically create unlimitedly and in an
unlimited fashion and optimize that way.
>> Oh god, I I think that's going to be
Meta's next AI benchmark and their next
model releases. You know, how well can
our AI uh grow its platform on social
media? It's honestly a terrifying kind
of example, but I could totally see that
happening. I mean, RL has proved really
good at doing specific tasks. Um, social
media is a place where there is so much
data coming in. It honestly is probably
a pretty easy place to do something like
that. Um, but wow. Yeah.
RLE
social media influence is great.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. It's great at playing games.
Social media is a game. the retweets are
the are the or the reshares. That's the
points. So, so maybe we see it. All
right. U in the second half, we're going
to get into how Meta is going to use our
uh so our our chat data or our
engagement with its LLMs uh for
advertising. And then we're going to
touch on uh the launch of Anthropics
Sonnet 4.5 model. And um and we will
also cover the fact that Apple has seen
what Meta is doing with its AI glasses
and decided to accelerate its own smart
glasses roadmap. So, you know, as as I
kicked a break, I'm just thinking to
myself, wow, like you might want to bash
Meta, but it's in the conversation uh
all across the board, whether it's
hardware, advertising, or content feeds.
Um something will work for that company.
It always does. All right, we'll be back
right after this. And we're back here on
Big Technology Podcast Friday edition
with special guest Max Ze. He is the
senior AI reporter at TechCrunch. Max,
you had a story this week talking about
how Meta is going to use our AI chat
data to target ads. And this has been
something we've long worried about here
on the show. um not the fact that it's
going to happen but the fashion with
which it could be done because people
are pouring their hearts out to these
bots they're using them as therapists
and lovers and uh there there is there
an expectation I mean it's a tech
product is there expectation of privacy
I don't know but now it's going to be
put into the meta ad machine so what can
you tell us about this
>> yeah uh I mean it was funny I was
talking with someone at Meta about this
uh you know earlier this week and they
said you know I'm sure a lot of people
already thought we were doing this uh
But we're just announcing that we're
going to start doing this. And I thought
that was a really telling comment uh
about how people view privacy on Meta's
platforms. But yeah, I mean Meta has
basically announced that yeah, we're
going to take everything you say to an
AI chatbot and we are going to basically
have it uh affect the kind of ads that
you see on Instagram and Facebook. Um of
course there are some exceptions if you
are talking about really sensitive
issues. um Meta has kind of called out a
couple ones like if you talk about u
religion or politics or kind of
sensitive health issues then it's not
going to suggest you ads based on that
information but um this is I think a
really kind of fascinating moment where
the AI companies are coming out and
saying this and and it is really I think
revealing of their playbook uh in the
coming years. Um, you know, maybe these
AI chat bots were once free products on
their platforms, you know, that that
we've gotten to use for the last couple
years, but I think we're increasingly
seeing that there are strings attached
to using these free products. They are
going to take your data and serve you
ads on them. Uh, they're going to train
more models based on everything you tell
it. Um, I think it might make a lot of
people think twice about how much info
they share with these AI chat bots. And
I'm curious to see if it really affects,
you know, how people use them as
therapists and friends and whatnot,
>> right? It's good to see that there are
some exemptions, but uh I can just
imagine that the next scandal is going
to be like, "I've used the Meta AI
chat." Someone saying, "I've used the
Meta AI chat as my therapist and now I'm
getting ads in my feed for Prozac. Talk
to your doctor about Prozac or something
like that." Like that would be bad.
>> It does seem bad. it. Yeah. I I think
that there there is also Oh, yeah. I was
just going to say I think that there's
also this kind of
>> really it's it's a incredibly valuable
data stream for Meta and and I think
that, you know, this is probably been
the plan all along in some sense is to,
you know, take this profile that they've
built uh via the AI chatbot and and
monetize it in some way. And we've been
talking for so long about how, you know,
you could put ads in a chatbot, but I
think that people maybe have spoken less
about just how valuable all that
information is to serve you ads
elsewhere. And Meta is probably the best
positioned company to do that.
>> The economics of this AI boom, do they
make sense if they just boil down to
serving us better ads or does it has to
be something more? I think that ads have
been the biggest business on the
internet for a long time now. And I have
no I I don't think that's going to
change. Like I like I think that that is
going to continue being the case. I
think it could probably be a bigger
business than it is today. Um I think
you could probably get more specific
kinds of ads and AI. I mean, I I share
so I and and other people, everyone
share so much more information with an
AI chatbot than you do with your
Instagram feed, with Google. And you
have to think that, you know, these
companies that already have this great
profile on you, if they could fine-tune
it even more to show you just the exact
product that you want in the moment that
you want it, uh, even better than they
can today, I mean, there's clearly a lot
of value there. Um, so yeah, I I do
think that even if it just boils down to
ads, I mean, that's that's gotten Google
and Meta pretty far. So I wouldn't, you
know, doubt that.
>> Max, I'm I'm getting depressed. Um,
anyway, I I So my take on this would be
ads will be part of it, but it has to be
substantially more than ads. They have
to end up uh automating a good chunk of
white collar work to make the valuations
work. Uh, but certainly the companies
are going to be much more sustainable if
they can use it to be much more
effective in advertising. So, I think
you're probably right there. I'm I'm
curious what the vibe is inside of Meta
right now given um well state of vibes
and the new talent and the um the pivot
or the the move towards commercializing
its AI technology. This is from the
information. A meta change on publishing
research causes a stir in its AI group.
In recent weeks, Meta Platforms made a
change to its fundamental artificial
intelligence research lab that rubbed
members of the group the wrong way.
Fair, as it's known, would have to
undergo additional review of its
research before publishing it. The new
policy was a tough pill to swallow for
some members of fair who perceived the
change as a new restriction on the
freedom that they had pre that they
previously had to share their research
outside of Meta. Meta has spent much of
this year remaking its broader AI
efforts and it has pushed fair to
contribute to Meta's products and spend
less time less time on sharing research
externally. The chang the changes so
bothered Yan Lakun, an AI pioneer who
co-founded Fair in 2013, that he mused
to colleagues in September that perhaps
he should quit as fair's chief
scientist. Max, what's your read on
what's happening here? And do you think
that we're just at the beginning of
massive tumult within Meta's AI division
because of the focus on products and
because of this talent situation that
they have?
>> Yeah, I mean, this is a great report on
the state of Meta right now. I think it
lines up with things I've heard from
people inside of Meta uh in previous
weeks that uh basically the level of
bureaucracy inside of Meta uh
specifically in its AI division um is
really a problem for a lot of people. Uh
I think that this is something that new
employees that have come in from OpenAI
and you know scale and whatnot have
complained about but but it also seems
to be you know leaking into fair. What's
interesting is that fair has been for a
long time now allowed to kind of operate
independently very you know they could
kind of work on these lofty long-term
goals uh you know so that sometimes
wouldn't you know produce anything for
you know 5 to 10 years um but they were
allowed to kind of operate independently
and they've produced a lot of great work
over the years um I think that is
increasingly in jeopardy as AI just
becomes too important to meta um where
you know as report uh states, I mean
they they were like we need to be really
careful about what we put out. We don't
want to give, you know, our competitors
an edge. Um and yeah, I think that uh
there is a lot of moving pieces inside
of MSL right now. Um and people are
coming, people are going almost every
week it seems. Um I don't think that
this will be the last story we see about
you know the kind of tumult inside of
MSL.
Yeah. Meta MSL meta super intelligence
labs and it it is interesting because
I've written a lot about the formation
of fair back in the early 2010s and
Zuckerberg was absolutely right in
seeing how important AI was going to be
and u it is interesting that you know
they didn't have a high opinion of LLM
within fair for a while and he probably
feels behind the eightball uh and and
trailing open AI or he definitely feels
that way which is why he's spending this
much money on talent. But um question is
now that now that that bet has sort of
proved really smart uh how much you let
a lab that's focused on future stuff uh
continue to think about that as opposed
to going full speed ahead on the
present. So speaking of the present uh
we have a new model from it and went
completely under the radar this week.
Anthropic launched uh sonnet 4.5 its
best model for AI coding you write in in
TechCrunch. uh it's capable of building
production ready applications rather
than prototypes a leap in reliability
from previous AI models and also I think
it can go autonomously for like 30 hours
so Max you wrote about this what's the
significance of sonnet 4.5
>> I think the story of sonnet 4.5 is
really just uh anthropic needs to get
back in the lead in the coding space um
I think that for a long time uh as
you've talked about on the show before I
mean anthropics models are really a
favorite among developers and they have
been for the last year or so. Um, and
it's because they're they're very good
at coding. They're very good at kind of
aically working on their own. Um, so in
apps like cursor, uh, you know, in these
vibe coding apps, uh, a lot of people
use them and it represents a huge part
of anthropics business right now. GPT5,
the model OpenAI released
month ago at this point, I believe, uh,
two months ago, it really changed that.
Um, you know, people I've talked to at
cursor say that, you know, it completely
leveled the kind of usage between open
AI and anthropics models in a way that
they hadn't seen for a long time. And I
think that anthropic, you know, for
OpenAI, I mean, coding models are just a
small piece of their business. Chat GBT
is kind of the the big tuna for them.
But, uh, for anthropic, I mean, this is
existential like they need to lead in
coding and this is their attempt to do
that. And whether Claude Sonnet 4.5 does
that, it's on benchmarks very
impressive, but I mean, I've heard mixed
things from people saying GPC5 is it's
really strong. It's still my go-to. So,
I'm curious to see if this puts
Anthropic back in the lead. I was
speaking with the CEO this week who
unprompted was talking about like
backwards compatibility with AI and said
hey all all my engineers uh you know
went from anthropics models and we ran
towards GPT5 when that came out and then
everybody ran back to sonet 4.5. So, um,
it is one of those things where you now
you see this competition and, uh, if I
was an engineer working with AI code,
I'd be thrilled because you have these
two heavyweight multi-billion dollar
companies just trying to make my life
easier at every possible turn.
>> Yeah. I mean, it is an insanely
competitive space right now. I mean, you
you basically have to ship a new model
every couple months to stay ahead of the
competition. Um, and I think that this
is a really tough business for anthropic
to be in where it just has to execute at
a very high level for, you know, the
foreseeable future. Like it can't really
take a break here. Um, and it can't miss
a step. Um, I am curious to kind of see
if this really changes the way people
use AI coding models. I mean, Anthropic
says that it's capable of building these
productionready applications that, you
know, you can vibe code up an app and
it'll set up, you know, a database and
it'll become SOCK 2 compliant and uh,
you know, all of these things. And I'm
curious to see if uh, this actually
enables everyday people to start using
AI coding models more or if it just
makes a developer's life easier. I lean
towards the latter.
>> I think the latter probably is it. Um
listeners and viewers, we have Mike
Kger, the head of product at Anthropic.
He'll be on the show next Wednesday for
our Wednesday show. So stay tuned for
that. We'll talk to him all about Sonnet
4.5. All right, final story this week.
Let's talk about the Apple forthcoming
smart glasses. This is from Bloomberg.
Apple's uh smart glasses are so
important to it that it's shelving the
Vision Pro headset. Uh this uh smaller
one. Oh, actually, actually, no. I'm
going to let me read the story. Apple is
might be bigger than I expected. Apple
Inc. has hit pause on a planned overhaul
to its vision pro headset to redirect
resources towards a more urgent effort
developing smart glasses that can rival
products from meta platforms. Smart
glasses have emerged as a critical arena
for tech companies which are racing to
develop AIcentric devices. Future
designs could eventually challenge
smartphones as a must-have technology
and Apple wants to be ready. The company
is working on at least two types of
smart glasses. The first one, dubbed
N50, will pair with an iPhone and lack
its own display. Apple aims to unveil
this model as soon as next year ahead of
a release in 2027. Apple is also working
on a version with a display, something
that could challenge the just released
Meta Rayband display. The Apple version
have been planned for 2028, but the
company is now looking to accelerate
development. This is this is a massive
story. think I thanks to Mark German
from from Bloomberg to for reporting it
out. But it it's fascinating to me that
Apple looking over at Meta now sees
glasses as so important that it's
shelving a big redevelopment of the
Vision Pro uh reportedly to go after
this. What's the significance, Max?
>> Yeah, I mean I think that honestly
Meta's Rayband display glasses were so
impressive to a lot of people. I mean,
if you try to book an appointment in the
Bay Area to go demo these, uh, it's
basically booked out for the next 2 or 3
months. Um, I mean, you basically just
can't even Yeah, you can't even get an
appointment right now. Um, so, uh, and
you have to demo them to buy them, which
is a weird detail about them, but but
the the demand for them, I think, has
been incredible. I think people are
really fascinated by this new computing
form factor. I think it's a lot more
compelling than putting a pair of big
goggles like an Apple Vision Pro or a
MetaQuest on your face. Um, I don't know
about you, I can't stand uh the headsets
to be completely frank. I think they get
hot. I think they're kind of
uncomfortable, but the glasses are very
comfortable to slide on. And uh I for
one am really excited about this
development. I think this is like a much
better direction for Apple to go in than
making a better Vision Pro. Um, but of
course Apple is in a much better
position to win here. I mean, they can
connect it to iMessage. They can connect
it to all the apps on your phone. So,
I'm not sure what claim Meta really has
besides being first to market here,
>> right? It is interesting because you
have these two things going on at the
same time. Meta being first, like it's
kind of I'm sure Mark Zuckerberg is
loving the fact that Tim Cook is running
after him in product direction. like he
calls the company Meta, then Apple
develops the Vision Pro. He builds
glasses, then Apple builds glasses, you
know? It's like he must love that. But
you're right. I mean, Apple has this
tendency to be last and best and or not
maybe not last, but it releases when
it's ready and it's and it's often best.
The one thing I would say with Apple, it
it's a these are these are effectively
AI devices, right? these wearables
become interesting because of the
ability to integrate AI into everything.
And at the risk of saying the same thing
I've said on the show for like five
years already in its entire existence,
um, if Apple's going to play here, it's
got to get better at AI.
>> It it definitely does. I mean, I think
that this product more than any iPhone
that Apple releases will be an AI first
product. Uh, that probably requires you
to talk to an AI model to use it at all.
Um, so it does need to get a lot better.
Um, I have been hoping that Apple would
just, you know, partner more seriously
with OpenAI and Anthropic, um, and, you
know, just just opening up their
platform so that other AI other AI
models can really just, you know, uh,
power some of these features that Apple
clearly just can't develop. But, uh,
Apple has a lot of pride, so I'm not
sure if they'll go down that route.
I just want to give a quick shout out
for Apple. Apple, I know I've been tough
on you on the show. Uh, no apologies,
but I will give you credit where credit
is due. I recently picked up a pair of
the new uh AirPods 3 Pro uh model and
I've never used better headphones in my
entire life. They are crazy. The sound
is amazing. Uh even though they're
earbuds, the thing can really noise
cancel and uh it's now my favorite new
tech thing I've had in a while.
>> Wow. That's Have you tried the There's
like the AI translation uh feature in
them. Have you tried that?
>> Not yet. I need to figure out how to uh
set that up. I think you need like to
get the translate app and probably I'm
on the 15 Pro for my phone. Um, but uh I
my wife's family or my wife and her
family, they're all European. So, I
think that it'll be really nice for me
on our next visit out there um to be
able to uh turn turn this mode on and be
able to communicate with their
grandparents. So,
>> yeah,
>> I'm looking forward to it. This is the
brilliant part about Apple is that when
it does release an AI feature, it
immediately has millions of people who
are so excited to use it and interact,
you know, with with their daily life.
Um, this is the thing I can't get over
and and I'm sure Meta is acutely aware
of that just, you know, the smart
glasses may take a couple years to come
out, but when they do, I mean, that
thing is going to sync up right to your
iPhone. It's going to have, you know,
all of your contacts in it. And I don't
know, like I just think that Meta can
has to really innovate in the next
couple years and race ahead to have a
lasting chance here.
>> Yeah. But the thing is I guess it's now
it's in the game. Um I the So I've had a
chance to sit with Zuckerberg a couple
of times and the thing that I saw him
the most frustrated about in our
conversations was was the fact that he
has to go through Apple and Android in
order to deliver his services. He hates
just being an app on the phone. So, I
think he'll take the fact that he's in
the game. Uh, but it's not going to be
easy to run away with. So, um, all
right. I I want to end here. Uh, on your
desk, if I'm not mistaken right now, you
have the friend pendant. Uh, folks, I
don't know if you've seen it, but
friend.com is this AI wearable device
that a company. They they listen to your
conversations. They give you updates and
on your day. They're running a massive
ad campaign in New York right now.
Everywhere you look, there's these
friend signs. And as Ario said uh uh
last week on Twitter that this is chaos
marketing signs meant to be defaced
because it's just like these white signs
and you know unclear slogans. Uh long
story short, you have one and uh I'd
love to hear your experience with it,
Max.
>> Yeah, I I do have one of the friend
devices. I got it a few days ago and I
think that it is a really fascinating
experience to try out an AI wearable. I
will honestly say that, you know, like
there's a lot of things that Friend is
doing, I think, really well right now.
Like I think that their marketing is
honestly like like one of the smartest
marketing campaigns I've seen in a long
time. Um, even if it is rage bait, I
mean, it's getting so many people
talking about this. Uh it's it's
incredible. Um and then the actual
product itself, I think the packaging, I
think the design, the experience of
getting one of these things is very
thoughtful. It does feel kind of like an
early Apple product in the way it's
packaged at least. And I know that uh
the CEO, Avi, definitely puts a lot of
attention into that. The experience of
actually using it is uh a little bit
unsettling in some ways. I mean, the
device is uh, you know, it kind of has a
snarky personality, kind of like you're
talking to a 22-year-old. Uh, it it kind
of uh has, you know, this I mean, it has
this always listening feature where it
is you can't turn it off really easily.
Like I mean I've had some sensitive
conversations with sources that I've
just literally had to disconnect the
device from my phone completely and like
toss it in another room because uh and
you you you also have to sign this like
uh crazy privacy agreement with friend
where you basically have to agree that
you know they can use your data for
whatever you know that you can't sue
them you can't do a class action lawsuit
against them. I mean there I think there
are a lot of uh a lot of strings
attached to using a friend device. Um,
it does make me wonder the whole
experience about how can there be a good
version of an AI wearable like this?
Like this is a pretty strong starting
point, I think. But, you know, what is
OpenAI going to come out with? Like, you
know, is everyone going to feel the same
way about OpenAI's device as this? Or is
there some way to make people feel a
little more comfortable about it?
>> And the output that it gives you useful?
I think the out Yeah. It gives you
summaries of of your day. It'll
sometimes just text you like it designed
to be like a friend. Uh like so it'll
just you know like you could you could
be like I was talking to someone and it
texted me something about like something
he said like like man like I can't
believe Finn said that like like what
what was this guy talking about? And um
it does feel like it is trying to just
get you to engage with it more. like it
is I'm almost feel like I'm being rage
baited by this like AI chatbot that's
always listening to me and uh it is
interesting. Um AI has said that early
users of friend send like an average of
200 messages a day to it which is a lot.
Um and yeah I mean I I have like a lot
of thoughts about using this device. Um,
I'm not sure if this is something that I
will, you know, I'm going to be a power
user of or I'm going to use forever, but
I think that it's fascinating to get,
you know, a first experience with an AI
wearable like this.
>> Very cool. You're the first person that
I've spoken with who's used it and can
give us uh some insight into what it's
like. And I have to say, uh, I I'm not
running towards it right now, but I I'm
I will eventually I'm sure I'll
eventually use one of these things, but
but I'm not running towards it. All
right, Max. Um, before you head out, why
don't you tell folks where they can find
your work and where they can find you
online?
>> Sure. So, you can find my work at
techcrunch.com. My name is Maxwell Zeff
and, uh, I'm on X at Zeffax. Uh, and you
can also find me on Threads and Blue Sky
under the same handle.
>> All right. Well, Max, as I mentioned,
uh, big reader of your work and, uh,
this is the first time we've gotten you
on the show. Um, and I I hope we are
able to have these conversations many
more times. So, thanks again for all the
great work.
>> Thanks for having me. Would love to come
back.
>> All right. All right, everybody. On
Wednesday, Mike Kger, chief product
officer at Anthropic, is going to be
here to talk about Sonnet 4.5. So, we
hope to see you then. If you haven't
checked it out, I have an interview on
the feed with Scott Guthrie, the head of
AI and cloud at Microsoft, who did have
uh some things to say about the AI
buildout and why Microsoft seems to now
be taking what he might call a more
careful approach than some of the others
out there. So, definitely encourage you
to check that out. All right, that'll do
it for us here today. Have a great
weekend and we'll see you next time on
Big Technology