Kara Swisher Rates Tech Leaders

Channel: Alex Kantrowitz

Published at: 2024-04-20

YouTube video id: JBi72XNAKj4

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBi72XNAKj4

Caris swisser is here to talk with us
about the state of tech leadership AI
journalism the media business and her
best-selling burm book all that and more
is coming up right after this welcome to
Big technology podcast a show for
cool-headed nuance conversation of the
tech world and Beyond we are joined once
again by Cara swisser she's the host of
on with Cara swisser and the pivot
podcast and the author of the
bestselling new book Burn book which I
just finished and loved and the best
tech journalist to do it Cara welcome
back to the show thank you you have such
a good podcast voice I wish I had this
good one hello could do like Smooth Jazz
at midnight that kind of that's what we
aim for as long as people don't fall
asleep yeah that's a good thing that's
okay sometimes anyway so you know I have
had some people who are like yeah I like
to put on your podcast and go to bed and
I'm like well as long as the analytics
are complete then that's cor it that's
actually better CU they listen to the
exactly so congratulations best-selling
book thank you you signed a two book
deal this one obviously Memoir talking
about your interactions with the tech
community and your reporting over the
years any thoughts on what the second
one's going to be about there are some
thoughts it's about the future future
Tech really was broke broadly about you
know where it's a little more positive
it's a little more where things are
going you know it's as if I know a lot
now and so I want to sort of look at the
positive parts of it and where not it's
not going to necessarily be positive
because as usual it's me but um I think
it's going to be a very fair-minded look
at where things are going whether it's
it's psychedelics or the you know some
of the drug Discovery or cancer or um
range of things I'm doing it with my
brother um who's a doctor I think it's
really important because a lot of it
will focus on healthare um and you know
just just some of the stuff I think I'll
probably have a little bit of what's
been in burnbook at the end in it uh AI
is obviously part of it so something
like that I think but I might change my
mind I might just write a I'm fascinated
with these like you know I just
interviewed doig who did Super
communicators and you have the atomic
habits I'm thinking of trying to write
one of those and see if I can have a
bestseller at that just cuz I think it's
a formula I have them all and so I'm
like maybe I could pull this off I don't
know what I'd call it so what is the
formula for those they're just there's
like not much I'll tell you that like
there's there's like a few studies that
just string together you know I just
interviewed Jonathan hey for example you
you have a premise then you string a few
studies together and then you get in
arguments with people that seems to be
the
the way to do it okay so this wasn't in
my notes but since you're fresh off a
conversation with Jonathan height very
interesting guy he brought he basically
this whole book is talking about how
social media has led to a rise in
depression among teens but there's been
a very big push back to him from social
scientists from parents not from parents
it's interesting yeah it's a lot of
noisy social scientists arguing with
each other and he's wrong and they're
wrong and I F I think it's right in the
middle he's he he included some real
shitty studies there's no way around it
and I we just I said he go I go I'd
characterize them as and I go and he
goes how would you characterize them I
go shitty and he goes oh and I'm like
they are John and he goes yes some of
them are like you know I think um I
think he's left himself open in that
regard at the same time directionally
he's correct and I just think you know
you could either we could either be in
the situation where it's like the video
games remember video games was going to
make us all killers and that wasn't the
case that was you know or dirty song
lyrics thank you toore uh didn't really
make us all like dirty necessarily um
and so I think some people are worried
that he relies on cause there's no
causality versus co-relation and um and
so I think my push back to him was you
know there was also covid and there was
also Trump and there was also climate
change and there was also you know lists
of things so which one of them is
hurting kids more right and I do believe
I I've always been a longtime believer
that social media that delerious effects
will be will know them in 20 years
um but I think he needs if he wants to
make this broad statement he needs a
little more proof I don't think he's
incorrect In the End him and uh what's
his it's not twenge it's
TW I can't pronoun J she was the one he
based some of his work on um and then we
had a big argument about the stuff
around trans making people trans by
reading about trans people it's just
there's it's just nonsense there's no
proof it's just a right-wing Trope and I
thought he fell into it and he said he
used the word in part part you know in
part like people read about it so then
they know about it and I was like
there's literally been no change in the
amount of people who do transitioning um
and uh and I said that in part is doing
a lot of work here like just you know
stuff like that so it was good though
but a lot of what he says is absolutely
true kids need to play more um the
screens are have a deleterious effect on
especially girls I think there's no I
think directionally he's correct I just
think he's got to bring more especially
on a on a controversial topic especially
when tech companies are going to push
back at him definitely and I've been
I've been fascinated by the debate there
so I can't wait to listen to that I had
a question from one of the people I
thought was some of them some of The
Debaters some of the Skeptics are just
they're just not they're not it's not
good faith argument but some of them are
and I used one of them who I thought was
having a great debate with him about it
um to ask him a question as my expert
question so I I like the debate about it
and I I think in the end probably
there'll be it'll be un it won't be as
unclear once we realize the impact on
our kids but it's almost like us you
know what was the effect of the
Gutenberg Bible what was the effect of
telephones what was the effect of cars
like signicant it's a it's a significant
effect the question is some of I've
heard from like gay teens it's best
thing that ever happened to them back in
my day because they got to be able to
meet other gay teens right um that's a
good thing so I think it just has to be
a little more you know instead of just
being a moral Panic which I don't think
he's doing people are accusing of that
um instead of being a moral Panic that
we haven't paid attention to and so we
feel extra guilty and so now we have to
react to it um it it's a it's obviously
a significant just the way car the
introduction of cars was or the
introduction of the telephone and there
are and and the tech companies spent a
lot of time not ageg gating not giving
us the real data so you know I'm in the
middle with him right so let's talk a
little bit about the people building
these products would be fun to just go
through a couple of the characters that
you have in the book I'd love to start
with Mark andr Andre hor just raised 7.2
billion in a new fund now Mark is so
smart he's like obviously extremely
intelligent and he's so successful but
also so bitter and so interested in
shutting out any part of the debate like
at least at least like some people in
this like is social media hurting us
debate are coming out and having the
discussion while some people just don't
want to have the discussion he is on the
board of Facebook I guess I I've never
met someone who's so smart who's so
stupid I don't know how else to say
about him he's such a small-minded
person I hate to say that about people
um but you know he he's so he's
frequently wrong but he's never in doubt
and it's a really bad way to be when
you're you know and of course he uses
his wealth and successes as his shield
which I don't think it is he's he's had
plenty of disasters himself so he should
be he should know better yeah I just
think that You' want to engage good I'm
glad he raised he's Rich good he's Rich
all right got it yeah well I mean yeah
anyway okay but that doesn't make him
any better than my art teacher I don't
know like she wasn't Rich was a
wonderful teacher I I don't know what to
say these people think that money and um
inventing a browser gives them license
to say anything they want about
everything and honestly they're experts
at what they're experts on and the other
stuff I'm a little less inclined to have
to listen to their blather right and so
just to go from one to the next let's
talk about Elon for a minute what's your
read on the state of Elon I mean Tesla
today we talking on Monday this
episode's coming out Wednesday at 10%
they're cutting 10% of their Workforce
that stock has been cut in half and then
some yeah um what's your read on the
state of where Elon is and do you have
any sense that Tesla is struggling in
part because he's distracted by twiter
yes I think yes yes to all like I think
look Tesla was inevitably going to get
its come upin because there's going to
be he's he look let's see what he did
that's an accomplishment he create he
really did push forward this industry
there's no one you could give more
credit to than him in pushing forward
the electric vehicle thing Google tried
a little bit but he really did it right
and so a lot of people tried he did it
and so that was great and he came out
with a car that was Innovative and
interesting it's as if Steve Jobs
invented the iMac and then stopped
that's what it feels like it's like he
hasn't look it he hasn't done he's done
he did the Y and the X the Y but you
know then cyber truck come on like come
on you're not going to get a cyber truck
no it's a ter looks terrible like fine
if someone wants to buy it but it's not
a groundbreaking car everyone's going to
be in right so he sort of lost the
narrative on what was a very Innovative
company um and a very forward leaning
company and inevitably there was going
to be it's as if he didn't think there
was going to be competition once he
created but he felt like just cuz he
created he owned the space but he
doesn't there you know the planes are
covered with the bodies of pioneers
that's how I look at it in the US um not
everyone gets to California kind of
thing and so I think he's no question a
Pioneer no question a great entrepreneur
business person more than a technologist
I suspect is how it's going to end up in
history um and you know kind of a
handwavy PT Barum too which is part of
the package of doing that you need to be
like that um uh who then curdled into
something very strange right
into he became less entertaining than
sort of toxic and so obviously he was
going to have competition two he wasn't
he hasn't kept an eye on the ball on
Innovation and that there just hasn't
been a great the product line is sad and
tired right you know and it's the design
isn't like all these cars are coming out
the rivan's so goodlooking and you know
someone who's really prominent said I
don't know why every test has to look
like the inside of an egg and I agree I
don't want to buy it it's the most
unromantic oh leaves me cold the car
leaves me cold um but but once you see
cool ones you're like oh look at that
Porsche look at that BMW like why
wouldn't you and if they're cheaper I
have a Chevy bolt so I shouldn't talk
about sexy but I love it it's fun you
know
um and so I just think he dropped the
ball on innovation of the company I
think he he he alienated most of his
natural buyers by being such an [ __ ]
um and I think that he's indulging his
personal need to say speaking of which
saying anything about everything um and
offending people so you know if you have
a choice and this guy's an [ __ ] you
don't buy and it does not new and it's
not a compelling product it's a recipe
for what's happening right now but it is
interesting cuz if trying to wrap a like
a bow around what Elon is is sort of
very difficult right now because yeah of
course struggles with Twitter Tesla is
not doing very well Al though we'll see
what happens it's a stock price thing
but then neuralink is pretty impressive
so sort of well no let me just tell you
there are 10 companies like Nur like
he's not the only one so that's the
thing he acts like he invented the moon
like he just didn't there's been there
are other companies who aren't his hand
wavy as him so I don't know if it's
impressive I'd like to actually get it
away from his showing off a guy who can
do this is one thing I would like to see
the science I'd like him to open it up
I'd like people to see it I'd like
reporters to report on the 10 other
companies that are doing this which they
don't because it doesn't have Elon Musk
attached but several companies have put
electrodes he's embedded them they are
on the outside whatever there's all
kinds of fascinating interesting things
but I think that's hand waving versus
actual you know we're a long way from
doing what he wants to do um but I
welcome it I welcome it this would be
great I just where how's he going to
monetize it how's he going to make it
money at it um he's certainly been
Innovative in starlink and
SpaceX um the the solar thing solar is
now falling off so that's going to be a
problem his Solar City is going to
suffer even if it's a good company the
digging thing okay how's that going to
make money right like you know I think
those space stuff I think is the most
interesting stuff where um he's got a
really great CEO in Gwen Shotwell who
should get more credit than she does
who's managing things so
Gwen is doing a great job so also on the
on the space thing I let's just talk
about Starling for a second there's been
this big debate about whether Elon
should be the one controlling starlink I
mean he did put it up there in space
shouldn't the government if it was like
his company did his company did not not
him personally but don't you think the
government if it's like seeing this as a
national security thing should build its
own version of starlink and so it's not
like probably they should have but he
was more Innovative and faster so that
was a great idea so he and his company
were um yes they should I think he
should be just like any other vendor
locked or anybody else but he doesn't
see himself that way so right it's a
private company so in this case it's the
government's fault he can do what he
damn well pleases as far as I'm
concerned yeah he does yeah I think that
like the criticism of like oh how could
Elon have all this control it's like
well if this is no I'm worried why is
someone why is some guy who I'm not sure
what he's doing at 3:00 a.m. in charge
of this and not an expert on anything
that's my uh uh that's my issue right no
no doubt I mean I guess I would just say
that like the focus is tends to be on
him but really the government is has a
large role to play here but I guess we
agree there yeah I think the government
should be running it I just don't
understand why our government allowed
this to happen just like a lot of I
believe in public private Partnerships
but at some point these are in the
public interest the public part should
be driving the car but he is in that
case definitely it's amazing in the
Walter Ison book where that you
basically see the Obama Administration
seed everything space to SpaceX totally
and not just SpaceX je B it's whatever
you know I have thoughts on
Administration
yeah uh Zuckerberg so you have some very
colorful language about Zuckerberg in
the book you say uh [ __ ] your metaverse
you say Mark Zuckerberg wasn't an ass
and he did and he's done it yes and he's
done um he wasn't an he did he got he
started defunding it so I was right so
thank wait he has pulled back funding on
yeah he has pulled back from the you
have you seen him waving his hands about
he's now in Mr AI now now he is remember
he was Mr cryptocurrency that didn't
work then he was Mr metaverse now he's
Mr AI good one he finally got to the
right place but in some ways you have to
take all these bets I guess not that one
no not the metaverse no he didn't
totally an egomaniacal move on him well
but but on other hand it's also like you
have to keep Reinventing the company
clearly he was seeing that I guess use
of the Blue app was I think he enough
people saying no on that one he if he
had the right people they would have
said AI is where we need to focus Mark a
long time ago when you think about the
decisions that he's made on content for
instance do you think two things for you
do you think that musk has made him look
better in retrospect yes that that's a
gift to him that keeps on giving he
looks like a lovely guy you know it's
sort of um yeah he is he doesn't he's
not a Villain Like musk is like playing
a bond villain it's like he's moving
into Bon villain territory but um and
Mark was sort of adjacent Bon villain
adjacent kind of thing um no I think
Mark's a good business person he's a
little like Bill Gates and you saw the
transformation of Bill Gates over the
years as a sort of Darth Vader character
to a much more interesting character in
that regard um you know he's just a
businessman I think we we tend to have
an idolatry of these people and honestly
I don't know why we do and so you know
he's a flawed human being he's made good
decisions and bad decisions he's good at
making money he's very uh he's he was
good at his product his one product
which he did a great job on and now he's
trying really hard
to stay relevant like the rest of us
right and so um so good for him to do it
he'll make mistakes along the way um it
sort of like you know it reminds me of
haircuts like oh that haircut didn't
work out so well now this one's good you
know that kind of thing um and you know
he's he's he's right to move into the AI
Direction um I think he's been
incredibly sloppy and mismanaging of of
the social network as you know I wrote
about it in terms of his responsibility
and the true cost of what he's doing I
think he's not bearing the true costs we
are um I've said that over and over
again and they're doing it again cutting
off stuff in California because they
want to charge for it you know or Google
is one of them they're all doing it yeah
they take turns yeah mhm they're also
getting out of news and I've seen you
speak um critically of that I think
getting out of news is a good thing like
the mesing of news Facebook I don't
think I'm not critical I think they
shouldn't be in news if they're going to
do it badly that's my like then get the
[ __ ] out of it that said they have now
hollowed out the news business the
business of the you know digital
advertising they control and they don't
contribute anything back and I think
that's grotesque but they should be able
to do it right they've ruined the
business and now they're not going to do
it and before they ruined the business
and they were doing it badly so I guess
I want them to do the first than the
second um but they you know they they
shouldn't be in they weren't good at it
and so they're I think they should I
there's a way to do it well but I guess
I can't have them do that they can't
possibly you know Avail themselves to do
a good job at it and there are ways to
do it is just costly is what it is and
what is the solution then I think it's a
very bad business you know I don't know
because you always get sucked up into
partisanship and information and you
know they I think I think everyone
should be able to be sued because then
you do a lot better at your business if
you have the threat of lawsuits
essentially um so that's not happening
and so they're never going to be good at
it until they can be sued and it's just
not you know they they see the numbers
they know what works on their platforms
and video fun videos work a lot better
than news so they're not going to do it
it's it's too much you know they spend
probably I bet I'll take it to a
different company I bet David zazo
spends 90% of his heartache on CNN and
and it's 5% of his business right like G
why am I doing this you know that kind
of thing maybe best for everybody if
they're if they're out well except
they've decimated the actual business
right so so that's not good correct I
mean it's also but this is a thing
though right isn't it also incumbent
upon the news business to have yes other
models that are not Facebook Reliant yes
that's correct that's that's what I've
done I don't trust I remember when
Cheryl samber called me and she's like
come on Facebook live I'm like why she
goes will you'll be bigger I said I'm
plenty big like what do you what do I
get and they go well we'll give you some
money I'm like why should I it's like
you're buying friends I don't understand
why you'd give me money to be on it like
that makes no sense if it's a good
business it's a good business
you know I always felt it was like I'm
I'm like why should I I know I didn't
say this to her but I thought why should
I [ __ ] paint your fence I'm not
interested in that well I was at
BuzzFeed news during that time and we
exped you love painting other people's
fences you love painting and at the end
of the day that might have been the
Pinnacle that watermelon blowing up
might have been that was a great moment
I mean the with the with the with the
rubber bands rubber bands yeah that was
cool that was cool it was but fleeting
so fleeting but cool but cool cool
Sundar right person to lead Google it's
interesting because it's like the they
have all they're hitting alltime highs
they seem to be getting the ship
together with Cloud but still seem to
well you know I think the te the thing
on him they think he's indecisive right
I think that's what the're most the
complaints you hear from internally from
them right um I mean he's certainly
better than Larry and Sergey that's for
sure um I um I mean those two like okay
that would be a disaster why a disaster
cuz they're just they've lost the name
of the two of them you can you know all
their whack stuff they're doing all that
when they when they got to floating
floating showrooms out in San Francisco
Bay I was like
unseen um that was their water that's
what rich people do when they get bored
um um I think he's a very compat
executive probably you could have
someone a little more aggressive I guess
they have so many assets like you could
imagine they should be like at the he
and I had an argument years ago when
they weren't in cloud and I said why are
you letting Amazon take your natural
business and he's like well we're using
our capacity right for our products and
I said well get more like you shouldn't
let them have that's your business kind
of thing and you know he's just a
cautious person um I they should be
dominating in so many areas I I think
they're probably hindered by regulatory
issues in terms of buying things they
have to be very careful about what they
buy um I like Sundar Pai I think he's a
really thoughtful person but I see why
people think he's cautious yeah I was in
the room when you were interviewing him
and he said that line about AI being
akin to Fire and electricity and
everyone's like that was a weird thing
to say but yeah turns out that he was
right on that no he is he's a very
thoughtful and thoughtful I met him when
he was a product manager when he did um
uh the um browser so um the Chrome
browser and I always thought he was very
careful you know people in Tech don't
like careful people so he's probably
boring to them and Tim Cook has managed
to to get over that like because the
stock is so high you know it's it goes
up and down but it's about 10x from when
Steve Jobs ran it right so you know he's
managed to escape but he still has I was
somewhere and they're like Tim Cook is
just not inspiring him like it's worth
10 times more than Steve Jobs 10 times
like I don't know I feel like that's a
very good performance you know they're
just not inspired by the airpods I guess
right but it it is a good question about
Tim Cook as well it's the next on the
list actually because it's like it's 10x
it's 10x I that's all I have to say if
you're a shareholder you think it's
great you're happy like I all right what
do you expect them to do give you a
magical unicorn every year they're not
it's not happening it's and it didn't
happen under jobs either by the way
right no I think the main question is so
Tim Cook has kept the culture that they
had under jobs that's helped them build
this iPhone refine the
iPhone SAA does
too and it's great but there's you know
you look at Apple's ability to build the
next big thing yeah and you wonder no
car right they failed there and the AI
we apparently we're going to have a big
announcement about AI from Apple well
they they collect information the others
do they don't have those assets so that
was their business plan was to not do
that so that that makes
sense why they they have to partner with
someone they don't collect information
the way the others do they're not
information thieves the way the others
are do you think that they'll be able to
figure out the products though under
cook when it comes to AI um yeah I think
you'll you'll see it'll be something so
subtle I know I know you're expecting
some like beautiful gorgeous thing but
yeah I think your phone will talk to
your airpods better and then it'll
coordinate if they do that that'll be a
look at everyone's software and services
have grown like enormously under Tim
Cook like it's not that exciting but it
sure does make money right that kind of
stuff he's not as exciting I just think
it's um he's just not as exciting and at
the same time business processes are
just as important as products and you
know I I don't I think to expect some
wow event is is something of the past
that's not going to happen a lot of it
will be incremental um and the
incremental since they're such big
businesses is
enormous so third in a row uh in terms
of leader who's taken over from a
founder and sort of isn't as exciting
Jesse and Jesse at Amazon has his uh we
can do SAA next uh has has Jess's vision
for Amazon come through to you are you
sort of do you think you have a good
picture of what Amazon's going to do
know the healthcare moves I think are
really interesting we'll see where they
go right I think it's smart it's smart
for you to trust Amazon as your provider
of you know he took a little while to
get out of that stupid store thing um
but I'm sure it was compelling to them
in some fashion that they why they were
doing that um I think he probably
doesn't know what to do with Whole Foods
like what are we doing this for but
disaster well it's supposed to probably
a delivery it should have just been a
delivery Warehouse of food right I guess
to make because they're good at delivery
you know I've always thought of the
company as a logistics company so I'm
not like waiting for some mind-blowing
situation but of all the companies I use
I use that most actively and regularly
and it works really well and again it's
not as exciting but I don't see anyone
challenging it I don't see anyone
challenging Amazon in the food in the
food and product delivery space of any
heft whatsoever it's not Uber that was
going to be Uber if you remember it's
going to be this and that but I don't
see anyone challenging them and so
you're not on the Shen and teu train
we'll see you know if you want to buy
cheap [ __ ] and get it delivered too
quickly I suppose yeah no that's
logistical I mean they're very good at
logistical if Amazon doesn't make it as
much stuff as Sheen does that's a
slightly different business um but you
know that's a different business if you
want to buy a certain product that's you
know he in front of me I got these from
Amazon these are these ginger chews you
know I'm not getting them from Shan I'm
not going to eat their ginger chews
either no way um you know so I don't
know I I feel like it's I haven't seen
anyone supplant Amazon as yet in that
area but but you know you'll get more of
your stuff from them um you know they
did get into fast fashion at Amazon and
they just didn't do a great job of it it
and Sh does a better job so in that area
sure they'll they'll do better we'll see
how they do it on the other products too
they're already seeing growth growth
problems that that company right and
then in terms of the pattern I actually
think saon Adella stands out a bit and
that he is more exciting than the
previous three talking about how he
wants to make Google dance really
changing the culture of Microsoft
changing the focus do you think he tied
himself too closely to open AI because
now it seems like they're trying to
hedge um no I don't no I think they've
got to I think that was a smart move I
think he's got to do it himself I think
picking up great information and great
Computing resources that company sure
should be right in the middle of this um
no I thought that was smart he
Affiliated himself he's going to do
stuff on their own um he's placing bets
in several different good places that
makes sense to me you know I don't I
don't know I think if they not invented
here is a stupid way to behave and I
think he knows that in this Cas towards
the end of the book you talk about Sam
Altman also and Sam kind of strikes me
as an Earnest leader in the real deal
what's your perspective on Sam H I think
he's super aggressive I've met him when
he was 19 so I have a long history with
him you know he's like the rest of them
he's super aggressive he's much more
thoughtful um he has much calmer voice
and everything else he at least you know
leans in the direction of there could be
problems here you know none of them ever
said that so that makes him a unicorn
like when he actually admits possible
mistakes um I don't think he wants to be
an oracle of everything I appreciate
that
um I think he uh I like the people he
Affiliates himself with I think he's
sort of a counterweight to Elon in that
regard um at the same time he's an
aggressive entrepreneur so he's going to
do everything in his interests again I
don't one of the real mistakes people
make is to make these people any of them
into saviors or that they're going to
change everything um I don't they're
just business people to me they're not
unlike the people who provided us with
Coke or Twinkies or anything else and I
didn't tot praise them so I'm not going
to praise them you know they're good at
what they do I think he'll do whatever
is in his interests I don't care I don't
mind that he doesn't pretend he's not um
you know he can go on and on about how
changing the world if he wants I you
know maybe he will maybe he won't but he
mostly is pretty honest about his aims
which is to build the biggest company
and boy he's got a lot of challenges
from a legal point of view and he has
everyone on his ass so you know he's got
to raise a lot of money the chips thing
the expense uh and he's got to make
money I mean you have subscriptions but
I I suspect it's not a very big business
right and you brought up a couple times
but this notion of these people aren't
saviors kind of goes to like the first
sentence of your book so it was
capitalism after all yeah CU they talk a
lot about saving the world and of course
like it is a lot this stuff has been
motivated by capitalism but then again
like it you know sort of like seems like
none of this could have happened without
it whether they were trying to save the
world or not no I I I I don't mind it
it's I I what I minded is they
ridiculously high-minded [ __ ]
nonsense that they had to voice on us
like you didn't have the guy who made
Tootsie Rolls do that right I am here to
bring the world through sweetness to a
better place like that was actually
world saving technology though it was I
love a tootsie roll and it makes me
happier than most products but
nonetheless it was like you know it's
just nonsense and so they really and
they actually believe it for some reason
they were either they weren't hugged
enough as children or they just don't I
don't know what's wrong with them from a
psychological point of view but they
have to be beloved and savior like in
order to excel I just they're just
making stuff and they're selling it and
I wish they just say that and have a
little more care not not to tell me
they're not creating a nasty version of
capitalism and then make a nasty version
of capitalism because capitalism has
great Parts but it also has real
unpleasant implications y unfettered
it's terrible and last one on the list
is is Mark cubin who's interesting
because he is like a basically like
straightup business person um and you
praise him in the book and I'll do it
here too he seems yeah at least when
I've spok with him someone who's just
the person that he is he's not trying to
put onir he was kind of a bro in the
beginning you didn't probably didn't
meet him back then but he was real bro
he was Heavy bro and kind of an [ __ ]
and we'd argue a lot and you know when
he I didn't think broadcast.com was
anything but like a I was like this is a
business I think you're just taking
advantage of the moment and I can't
believe they paid that much for it he
was all mad because he thought it was a
real business later he' be like oh you
were right that's kind of a not a
nothing Burger but um I think he's
pursuing interesting things I think he's
um very straightforward he calls it as
he sees it you know uh he's sort of a
counterweight he feels like an adult
those I mean again it's a very it's thin
GRL out there so you take any you know
any port in the storm in that regard but
he's a nice I like him personally yeah
same here so as I was reading through
the book I was like trying to think
about like what is like if there's a
through line between what makes
successful leader what is it and it's so
interesting because we've talked about
so many different types of personalities
at the Helms of these companies and you
know some leaders like they have real
ego and some and so arogant and then
some are just the they feel pretty hum
their guy Sam's a nice guy Mark nice guy
exactly so I'm curious what you think
about like whether that plays into at
all whether someone successful I don't
think there's anything I think the only
thing that I'd say is sort of an ability
to to to be persistent they persistence
um they're they they stick with I'm
persistent too so I think persistence is
an unsung trait among people some people
call it some people think contrarianism
is a good thing I think it's always ends
up becoming curdled you know what I mean
I'm just being against it to be against
it because I want to destroy to destroy
it doesn't make any sense to me um I
think uh I think persistence is the one
that they're all that I would say
they're persistent and that's a good
thing and they don't get they don't get
um failure doesn't bother them as much
they are able to accept failure and move
along and I think that's always a good
quality although I prefer the ones who
when they they don't say it's not a
failure I'm like it was a failure like
they admit it and then they're like okay
we're going to try this yeah that's what
an adult does so I don't know if you saw
there was this kind of thought
experiment about if you put somebody in
a room with Gary Kasparov and gave them
like unlimited tries to beat him at
chess how long would it take for them to
do it and a lot of the Chess Masters
were like they would never beat Gary
never and some people are like well you
know it would take this amount of time
and they'd eventually be able to do that
and so when I thinking more about like
what takes a successful leader do you
think successful Tech leaders have that
Gary Kasparov sort of ability to build
this stuff or that chess is a whole
different yeah I think sometimes it's
luck often times there's a whole lot
more luck going on than anything else
it's someone who has a good idea and is
able to shift quickly I think that is a
quality that's great but the idea that
these are more special you know unicorns
than you and I it's just not true it's
just not true um some of them are some
of them are really quite gifted and what
they do what they tend to do then is
shift off into other areas they're not
so good at you know um or pontificating
like VC is talking about Ukraine no
thank you they're idiotic beyond belief
most of them um but um but but you know
yeah I think there P there is a quality
of Entre it's an entrepreneurial quality
that not everybody has and that is true
like I'm more entrepreneurial than the
average reporter and that's why I think
I've done well so why am I like that
lots of reasons I have a disputatious
personality I uh I want to work for
myself and that's just the way I am like
the way I'm built and it helps to be
that way in what my aims but if it was
if I had had to be at an office I'd have
problems I'd be at the bottom of the
totem pole for sure yeah same here so
thinking about like the people that
occupy these levels of power do you
think that we're living in something
close to a meritocracy or is it really a
shuffling of like the top echelons of
society I think they end up helping each
other and then they think it's because I
think the first one yes I'll give it to
them the second one not as much right um
I think they think that they're I say I
always say I think in the book I say
this it's a they think it's a
meritocracy it's a mocracy and they and
they somehow think they did it all and
you know just like Elon taking credit
for everything like you can't do
anything without taking it's so trumpian
like I only I can do this which is like
give me a [ __ ] break but I guess what
I'm trying to ask is do you think
someone like born in an average family
with no connections to the tech industry
could make it yeah for sure yes just
like everything else they could start a
yogurt store too right right so sure
yeah why not um I do think again
persistance really does set them apart
they just keep going and that is not a
small thing and that doesn't require
intelligence you know you do have to
have a level of intelligence that's for
sure but like a lot you know a lot of
these people aren't as highly Steve Jobs
wasn't technical he knew about
technology but he wasn't technical he
was inspirational and he was he could
you know he's the one that said
podcasting to me the first time he said
something you know the privacy on stage
like he's just was a big thinker he was
a big thinker and I think he was a
special thinker you know and and then of
course he becomes the the character he
is right so then you have that you know
checking in um so that's a whole another
thing is they become you know some of
them are smart enough to resist becoming
savior God Oracle like figures and some
people aren't um but you know you look
at someone like jobs and he had so many
wins it's sort of like a sports team
it's like okay they're better like so
many good so many wins you're like come
on at this point they can retire on
their wins but I think that about that a
lot about lot of good in anyone else I
was um when I when I was doing all
things D there was about in year 15 I'm
like I should just retire now I've done
enough I've done enough right kind of
thing and so you know these people keep
going um and that's a really great
quality of them right and you haven't I
mean you haven't retired and you even
write in the book about like the your
decision to even like you wrote right
after you wrote about your stroke that
you're like I just want to work yeah I
like working I enjoy it I'm good at it
I'm good at what I do and why wouldn't I
want to keep and I have all these
interesting ideas and I want to bring
them I'm a Entre I am really an
entrepreneur in a lot of ways and so I'm
kind of interested see like right now
I'm super interested in video I don't
know why I just am like huh why is
everyone calling this the end of this
when I don't think it's the end right
right um and so I just want to see maybe
it is maybe I'm wrong but I don't think
I am um and so uh I just I just really
like to try different things and so I I
I that's why I'll keep working because
it interests me if I was interested in
gardening I'd do that but not yeah so
we've talked about in terms of the
nature of of a leader ego success power
and how about money I mean how do you
think Money Changes people and does it
inevitably change everyone that gets it
no no there's a lot of rich people who
are perfectly F Mark H be one of them
he's just you know he's got a lot of
money obviously just paid
270 million in76 million in taxes um uh
I not everybody no uh but a lot of
people yes because what happens is they
get surrounded by enablers that tell
them they're so smart and then then they
think they're so smart and so the weaker
the weaker characters tend to be tend to
become weaker still by that and so
inevitably when you're that rich you get
more and more into a bubble of of wealth
that is really hard to break out of I
find it sometimes I'm leaving some of
these people and they have their Chiefs
of Staff and their planes and I'm like
oh my God I got to leave and get on this
bike and go out and they can't do that
for lots of reasons or don't think they
can do that and so I do think it's it
can be a real prison a very comfortable
prison but a prison nonetheless exactly
Caris swisser is here she's the author
of burnbook which you can get in your
book store of choice we'll be back right
after this and we're back here with
Caris Wier on big technology podcast
talking about burnbook the state of
technology and let's talk about AI a
little bit more one of the most
interesting things that I uh read from
uh from in the book about AI was this
quote from uh Elon and and then your
response to it so you say that Elon said
we really need to think of intelligence
uh as not being uniquely confined to
humans and that potential for
intelligence in computers is far greater
than in biology and you WR musk was
right yeah yeah he was yeah I agree it's
a different kind of intelligence I think
we anthromorph ISE it you know a little
too much like they're going to kill us
or they want to kill us or anything like
that but sure it makes sense if someone
can crunch numbers faster it's a
different it's just a different kind of
intelligence and it works very well with
data that's right and so then do you
think that we're sort of that the hype
around this current cycle of generative
AI is is appropriate yeah I think it is
because it look there's so much data now
and there's and this Computing is
getting better and better and more
sophisticated it makes sense that it
will you know years ago I heard a speech
I was I was in I was sitting up in top
of a church which was interesting I just
have a vision of being there and the guy
said we're right now was was he was an
AI person I think from MIT and he said
right now now we're at Dolphin level
intelligence ve and it's soon going to
surpass humans it's going to go from
dolphin dolphins are pretty [ __ ]
smart to start with um it's going not
smart enough obviously to get out of
Nets but nonetheless smart um but uh but
it's going to surpass and I thought well
that makes sense because it's going to
have more and more information if it
especially if it's data heavy it should
do the human brain can't like a doctor
can't read all the medical journals and
every all the latest new things so it
makes sense that it would be smarter in
that regard maybe not Kinder not more
creative and things like that so yeah I
think I think the hype should be there
it makes
sense do you think opening obviously is
the leader right now do you think it's
stable enough to continue I don't know
you know like was Netscape was the hot
ticket item and then it wasn't right so
is it netc I I talk about with Sam like
this are you Netscape or are you
something else he's like we're not
Netscape I'm like well you could be I'm
such a fun person to hang around um but
um you know they could be Netscape
where's its business plan there's a lot
of competitors it's you know he's
obviously a lightning rod and this whole
firing thing didn't help them much um
but um you know it's obviously at the
white hot Center of everything but I
don't think it will remain there no I
don't no I mean unless he's the best
business person in history but I don't
think he is he's they have a lot of
competition they do that's what I mean
I'm always like just like everyone was
like can you believe what happened to
Tesla I'm like yes that was so we we
talked about it two years ago and I got
all attacked by the Elon stance I'm like
inevitable competition inevitable and
this is a real pricey industry there's
no business plans so much money running
into it speaking of the andreon money
I'm sure it's all going into after
they're taking their crypto money that
didn't do as well um they are always up
to some scheme aren't they I mean that
crypto thing is still unbelievable to me
and then have audacity to come out and
write a book about how good it is going
to be after it's already failed some of
it is some of it is some of it is some
of it is yeah you write a lot about the
med business and journalism in the book
so on our AI theme do you think AI is
going to not kill but seriously injure
the media business AI will I think it
will affect it I don't know if it'll
kill it I think killing is a little
dramatic but Med people are dramatic um
you know I think it could Aid it in some
ways just like did the did the internet
kill us yeah but did it Aid us yeah you
know what I mean the ones who are
Innovative and use these these tools
sure um I don't know it's like saying
when the iPhone came out in 2007 would
you have predicted Uber hurt the T no
you wouldn't have like I don't know
what's going to be made but I do think
we should take all these tools and use
them and figure out where they're best
to deliver stories and stuff like that
and I think those who resist it and just
sort of you know bone their fate are
destined to fail that's for sure are you
using it at all in your I use it every
day I try all the different ones
different things so far I haven't found
that much that is helpful to me but I'm
not trying hard enough right um that's
my fault um some of the summary stuff is
interesting I'm not doing enough writing
for it to matter right um I think some
of the translation things on the podcast
we're trying out for our podcast to
translate into other languages is cool I
just don't know how many listeners we
have in Ethiopia for example like you
know I do I need it it's cool or
whatever the language happens to be um
so I think that's cool I think some of
the synopsis stuff is cool the
transcription but that that doesn't feel
like groundbreaking yet in podcasts um I
don't think it'll make podcasts that are
interesting so how does that help me I I
there's not that much it helps me with
yet but I I I haven't I'm not in the
writing business or the making of big
Media company business so if I were
there I'd think of it in advertising I'd
think of it in um subscriptions and uh
targeting people and creating all kinds
of new kinds of newspapers for people
personalized newspapers I would think
about that yeah but don't have to be in
let's say the writing content business
anymore I mean open AI just transcribed
half of YouTube it seems like according
to the New York Times yeah so if they
came to you and said let us just
transcribe uh you know on with Cara
swisser for free would you let that go
into the model or would demand
compensation or yes I would I can't take
my stuff yeah they're not shop they're
sh old time they're shoplifters they've
been shoplifters forever so no they're
not just pointing to me they're taking
my things so no it's just like YouTube
and to me the record industry figured
this out so did YouTube they had to pay
right so they can figure this out that's
what it reminds me of so I know they're
making all kinds of things yeah so well
right now we have these larger
Publications doing well like the New
York Times And The Wall Street Journal
and then it seems like the middle has
really been hollowed out hollowed out
and then we have I guess like individual
creators you that's sort of my bet here
with big technology sure is that the
path that you see journalism going you
know you're going to have individual
creators who are very influential of
which there are many now um you know uh
or small companies like an information
or puck or something like that or are
small and whose new Whose business whose
revenues are in line with costs that's
really important right even if it
doesn't make that much money your
Revenue needs to be in line with cost so
you're going to see a lot of that and
they're going to be highly influential a
lot of them you don't need that much to
be like I have three people working on
each of my podcasts I think our podcast
very influential um I think you um you
know you have to have a good business
whether it's subscription or advertising
or whatever you choose whatever you're
selling swag or whatever the heck you
want to do um and and then you're going
to have a couple big ones like the New
York Times Wall Street Journal that kind
of thing I think the the cnns will
figure it out it's a Global Information
Network they'll come up with a business
in line with its uh costs um I don't
think they're I don't think they're out
at all um but that it's just it's just a
re it's a reassessment of where you make
your money which is important to do yeah
and I I have I used to have a confident
answer when college students for
instance would ask me how do you break
in to journalism be like WR your way in
and then someone like a buzzfeed or a
vice will hire you that's not going to
happen no I think one of the greatest
thing that isn't happening is uh
mentorship there's not the mentorship is
gone I think and that's really hard um
there's it's going to be in little bits
and pieces but it's going to be very
hard for younger reporters to really be
mentored the way I was for example or
even find work yeah mhm well then you
have to be on your you know it's a
little more entrepreneurial like I said
if you're not entrepreneurial you're
going to have a harder
time can I ask you how you think about
your audience like what is the audience
for Tech reporting because there's
clearly like Tech you know people
working in the tech industry it is an
interesting story for people outside of
tech so when do you think how do you
think I have moved on from the tech Pros
I have such a different audience now
like I have regular people I I I meet
them all the time on this book tour it
was an eyeopener it's my podcast
audiences who buying all my stuff or
listening to me um you know I have a
wider range of people cuz I've been
trying to widen it out I'm not talking
about just Tech I'm talking about Tech's
impact on their lives especially kids
with kids or things that affect me um so
I have I've moved on from them a long
time ago which irks them but oh well so
that's interesting so it's both people
who Tech impacts in their daily lives IT
Tech impacts everybody everybody yeah so
I'm talking a c you know we have couples
who call us
pivot we just learned to get along
better well great that's a great product
or you know I didn't really understand
the deleterious effects of social media
oh now I do oh good great I'm glad you
know oh my job it might be Outsource how
should I think about this great I'm here
to help you you
know there's also you've also like moved
Beyond just Tech news right know I
talked I've always talked about media
we've always had a big media element to
our so I do a lot of media um I've been
doing much more politics but that's cuz
Tech has got in the crosshairs of
politicians so that was a natural step
so I try to do adjacent things and then
things that just interest me I just do
myself so just to keep going on this so
when when you think about your audience
it's basically it's tech for everyone MH
yeah and to do that you kind of had to
shift Beyond some of like the day-to-day
stuff like the stuff yeah I don't do
beat reporting anymore right but even
like what's but you did do the um you
broke a lot of news on the open AI
firing I did I just was bored that's cuz
I was really bored my wife was away with
the kids that weekend and I was
irritated by how bad the reporting was
and I and and one of the things that
really irritated me this idea there are
all these rumors around smart people I
know that were like he's getting let go
because of some gay love thing and I was
like that's not true like it pissed me
off like right you know and I don't know
why I was like oh are you [ __ ]
kidding me these [ __ ] this is what
they're what's this is what the [ __ ]
they're pedaling and so I got mad and I
started looking into it and then I'm
like I'll just read it and I'm really
good I have to say I did a good job
didn't I I still got it I still got it I
don't want to have it for that much but
I was like I just wanted to see how good
I wasn't if I could use Twitter and
threads to do that and I did I got it
all out it was it was it was fun I'm not
going to do it regularly I hear a lot of
things I pass on to other people do you
think you needed a larger audience to
then go into the tech for everyday
people no aspect no no CU you could have
the audience I've always thought you
have the I I'm into the fan-based
economy right I believe in fans I have
fans I don't have readers I have fans
who want to hear what I have to say and
so I've always thought that I from the
minute I did podcast I understood that
right away it was not the regular people
it was the people who were you either
have to be useful entertaining or must
have you can't get anywhere else those
are my three my three rules for any
product I make and so if I if you meet
all three of them you usually are
successful yeah I want to ask you about
the you know speaking of this the
motivations of people leak um now
obviously people leak because they have
an A to grind sometimes but often times
people just leak because they want so
can you talk about that a bit like the
motivation yeah I I think that you know
I don't some people are nefarious and
they have some they want a job or
something that but mostly they're just
mad because it's not out there and so
they want to tell someone they trust and
so I'm have become a very trustworthy
people for someone like that they feel
like they're going to get a fair shake
or that I can I have the ear of powerful
people and therefore you know if they
tell me they it'll have some impact um
you know sometimes you get you know
people who are clo I have a lot of
people close to Elon who are texting me
which I'm like oh I don't want to hear
about this you about his personal
problems um um you know they just no I
don't I don't because I don't know if
they're true or not um so um I suspect
they are but uh I don't know um but you
know I think people just want to talk
and so I'm a good listener you know and
I know a lot and I can find the right
place to put it and so I think that's
why they leak I think in general you
know I think everybody leaks it's just
not I don't think it's a it's a such a
shock that people would do that now
today everyone feels the the ability to
share is very you know it's very current
people do that now on social media so
they don't mind sharing in general
there's no you know was it Scott MCN
there's no privacy get used to it I
think he was right when he said that I
don't you meant it that way but that's
what I think is true what yeah what do
you think sources look for than in a
reporter I mean obviously brand and
publication work MH sometimes it used to
be we'd get everything at the Wall
Street Journal so no it doesn't that
doesn't matter anymore I think it's
people they trust I think it's people
they think know what they're talking
about or there's they can reach a
certain person um so I think a lot of it
is trust is the trust that you will do a
good job a good and fair job for the
that's who leaks to me people who think
I'll do a good and fair job and so I
that's who I focus in on I you know you
don't get it read I try to avoid people
who are angry right I just just they're
never going to be quite accurate and
then you get [ __ ] so I haven't yet
gotten [ __ ] but I I um I really do you
know I'm very careful about why they're
talking to me I suspect I always suspect
they're up to something and then usually
they're not but I start with the premise
they're up to something right and it's I
had this question for you about like the
fact that you did six interviews with
jobs and that Tech leaders are going
direct now but it's almost like when
Tech leaders go direct and like tech
companies are just going direct it's
almost a bigger opportunity for you know
for I go keep talking like I you know
they never do well in those three hour
conversations and the people that see
that stuff are going to want to get the
real story out yeah exactly let them do
it good luck you remember when Andre hor
was doing its media or whatever good
luck when they did that they're like one
of them called me and they're like we're
going to beat you at your own game I'm
like one you'll suck two it's a shitty
business enjoy I don't know what to tell
you good luck you aren't going to beat
me
you'll close it down and they course
close it down because it's a shitty
business it doesn't really have that
much impact and it's just easier to talk
to a reporter like you know I've never
me met a group of people that actually
talk about their disdain for the media
that never stop thinking about the media
that's my my interesting
little they're just very obsessed with
the media in a way that's I'm not
obsessed with them for sure right you
know okay uh the last one for you I've
watched a good chunk of the watched and
listen a good chunk of the book tour
you've uh been interviewed by Sam mman
you've gone on Bill Maher who is the
favorite person uh that you were
interviewed them come on they have to
pick one probably Cuban the best
conversation was Cuban because I like
him and we laughed a lot so that was fun
um but I'm always surprised by who does
real I thought Don Lemon was interesting
you know I thought that was because I
was right about Elon firing him well I
told him Elon was going to fire him the
minute that interview came out and he
did and D was like you're wrong and I'm
like okay I'm sorry night follows day in
that regard
um uh I uh I like I you know what I I am
being honest I like them all because
they're all different that's why I
designed it that way if I did it with
reporters who would have done a great
job there would have been similar
interviews every time and I thought
these people had never done interviews
and they tried really hard to be good
right and so every question that was
kind of cool the effort and then they're
always different every conversation was
different and so it became interesting
for me as opposed to just them and so I
was more interesting and that way I
liked it
sometimes people surprised you Sam Alton
was a very could been a journalist my
friend like him going I noticed you know
he goes you write a lot about your dad
but there's only one line about your
mother and it's very glancing but not
very nice what's that about oh he really
it was a very good I didn't answer it
either but he um he had it he he knew
where to push I thought wow that guy
could be a reporter it was very funny I
was laughing and I said afterwards I was
like Well Done samman how did you see
that that and then know no reporters
have ever asked me that and he did and
that's a really good question so anyway
the book is burn book it's by Caris sser
bestselling book you can pick it up at
your book choice I like that
congratulations and then we learned a
little bit more about what the second
one is going to be so stand by for that
you could also find Cara on the pivot
podcast and on with Cara swisser Cara
thank you so much for joining than so
much I'm glad you're an entrepreneur now
it's fun isn't it yeah I mean if you
think about it the last place I was at
BuzzFeed new is no longer in existence
so I'm grateful to be doing the job and
you are anyway all right thank you so
much thank you everybody for listening
we'll see you next time on big
technology podcast