His AI Voice Clone Went To Therapy, Took Meetings & Attended Family Dinners - w/ Evan Ratliff

Channel: Alex Kantrowitz

Published at: 2025-02-12

YouTube video id: GCVrpO3PniM

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCVrpO3PniM

let's explore the future of voice AI
with a man who cloned his voice and sent
it out into the wild that's coming up
right after this welcome to Big
technology podcast a show for
cool-headed nuance conversation of the
tech world and Beyond we're joined today
by Evan Ratliff he's the host of The
Great podcast shell game also a
technology journalist and formerly the
CEO of the atavist and the podcast is so
great and I'm so excited to speak with
him about it Evan great to see you
welcome to the show I'm very happy to be
here your podcast is kind of crazy a
little bit you take your voice and you
clone it and you send it out into the
wild having it speak with family members
friends therapists and I want to get to
all that but just to set the stakes it
does seem like voice AI this method of
using generative AI is becoming the
biggest format for AI so we just talked
on the Friday show uh this past week
about how the second open AI said that
they were going to do advanced voice AI
sign ups to chat GPT Skyrocket they went
it from they went from 100 million to
300 million users they went from two
billion web visits in a month to 4
billion um after flatlining for a while
we have Mark Zuckerberg who's talked
about how voice he thinks is going to be
the main interaction layer of AI That's
why I think this conversation is so
important um it's also fun because
you've done some crazy things with your
voice and we're going to talk about them
but also I think for anybody who's
listening or watching the show and wants
to know where AI is going this is a
pivotal conversation and I think in some
ways you're a Pioneer pressing the
technology to the limits so very glad to
be digging into this well thank you
thank you I mean when I started I I felt
like a Pioneer but I figured it would
all pass me by within six six months but
I think actually now it really voice AI
really is starting to become sort of
talked about in this more General way so
tell us about what you did so what I did
was I I first I Clon my voice just to
sort of see what that was like you know
a lot of people know 11 labs and you can
clone your own voice you can mess around
with it and then I connected it up to
chat gbt or any of the other llms uh at
different times to create what is
essentially a voice agent so uh an agent
that was using my voice simulation of my
voice but all of the content of what it
was speaking was coming actually from
the chatbot and then I took that voice
agent and I connected it up to phone
numbers including my personal cell phone
number and uh I kind of set it out in
the world and I prompted it to do
different things I had it make calls I
had to receive calls and I wanted to see
sort of what it felt like in the world
when you introduce these sort of AI
agents into society but why what was it
about this project that sort of made you
feel like that you needed to do it
because you invested a lot of time in
trying to figure this stuff out I did I
mean it could it has to be more than it
was just good for audio uh yes well I
mean there was a basic element of when I
started listening to the calls that it
would make and I would play them only
for my wife because I didn't tell anyone
else that I was working on this because
I didn't want anyone to know and they
were some of the strangest funniest
conversations I've ever heard in my life
and I just thought people need to hear
like people will want to hear this so
that was part of it but it was also that
as a technology journalist I just feel
like a lot of the conversations around
AI are either sort of like here the
models here's the companies here's the
funding uh or the sort of Doom scenarios
and there's a sort of missing layer
which is kind of when this technology
moves into society how does it change
our relationships what does it do to
trust what does it do to our
interactions to not know whether
something is real and I felt like there
was some space there to explore
something that maybe people hadn't
necessarily thought about yeah and
another thing that I thought about when
I was listening to the show was just
that we're at a point where audio or
voice AI is at its worst and it's
already pretty good and so by following
what you did we can sort of see where
this is all heading yeah it was I mean
it was changed over the time that I was
working on it of course so when I first
started my biggest concern was that it
was too slow that it wasn't going to
work because everyone would say well
this is a joke and then as time went on
it became clearer and clearer to the to
the extent that even some people who I
mean the show came out over the summer
finished in August there are some people
who listen to it now who complain that
they cannot distinguish the voice in the
later parts of the show you tricked me I
mean I was definitely tricked and I have
by the way I have a contract with 11
Labs who's a company that you worked
with I've licensed my voice to them uh
through Ai and it's used in their 11
reader app to read my big technology
stories so I'm working with them and
even still I couldn't figure it out yeah
it's interesting I will only point out I
must point out I didn't work with them I
everybody's technology that I used I
used without their knowledge which is
both to protect me and them like I use
these calling platforms and other
Technologies and none of them knew until
I called and interviewed them that I had
used any of their technology oh yeah all
right I'm just full dis closing for
everybody out there um so let's talk a
little bit about the uses um for this
the first thing that really stood out to
me was that you had your voice uh your
AI voice starts speaking to robocalling
scammers why did you pick them and how
did that go well it started because when
I was testing my agent at at the
beginning I would have a call customer
service lines like United Airlines or
Chase Bank and just kind of come up with
problems and try to have them solve the
problems but it was a little bit prank
colly in a way and I kind of felt bad so
I did a little bit of that but then I
thought well who was something someone I
wouldn't feel bad about this thing just
conversing with and so I set up this
phone line and I kind of seeded it out
in the world which isn't very hard to
start getting telemarketing calls to
start getting scam calls it actually to
this day it's probably getting a scam
call right now it gets 30 40 a day right
now is he still talking back to these
scammers absolutely all the time thank
you for doing the Lord's work here Evan
but there's a whole world of sort of
scam bating that I was familiar with
where people do this they try to egg
people on and that wasn't quite what I
was doing like what I was really trying
to do was see what happens when it's in
conversation with real people some of
whom realized that it was a robot some
of them real did not realize and
continued to try to run their Spiel on
it some of them may have noticed and not
even cared because all their job is to
just like get certain number of calls
out and that was sort of the way that I
started seeing like how it actually
operates in conversation hi my name is
sha with the major health and Roman
Center are you interested in a
government subsidy for free health
insurance hi Shaya thanks for reaching
out I'm not looking for health insurance
at the moment but I appreciate the offer
is there anything else I can help you
with
today what are you yeah it was pretty
hilarious I mean there's a lot of
there's a lot of interactions in which
it's it's trying very hard to be scammed
like it wants to be scam I told it like
accept any offer like participate in any
insurance plan like whatever it was
prompted to be very accepting so when
someone calls with a health insurance or
a new roof or whatever is they're going
to call with it's going to engage them
all the way up to the point where it
can't actually buy anything or give you
money yeah it's like they get to the
point where they're like okay and now
give me your social security number and
it's like sure my social security number
is 1 2 34567
and they're like 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 wait what
yeah and then it'll say oh I'm sorry
that's not correct it's 7654321 right
well it's good that it actually had the
real number in
there exactly um it's so interesting
that um you decided to then extend
beyond that to me I I was like when I
initially heard of your podcast I was
like oh Evan is sending his voice agent
to scam scammers that's great and that's
a show but then you progressed beyond
that and you got really weird um
especially sending the bot to therapy so
why did you send the bot to therapy well
it was partly because you know with
particular with AI but this has happened
as you know with many technology
products over the years the thing that
the companies who are putting these
products on the market will tell you is
the more information you give it the
more useful it will be so if you're
going to have an AI agent you need to
give it all this information about
yourself so it knows you so it can do
things for you that is going to be the
thing you're going to hear non-stop over
the coming years and so I thought okay
well why don't I do that why don't I
give it all this information about
myself my mental health history my life
story basically and see what happens if
I send it to therapists like what What
problems will it surface what answers
will it get and then I thought well
first I'll send it to an AI therapist
because what a perfect match like my
voice agent AI sitting there talking to
these AI therapists which are on the
market right now you can call them up
you can get AI therapy from an AI from a
chatbot but they're mostly a disaster
well they're mixed bag I would say I
mean I think the voice ones are still
newer than the chat they actually pure
chat typing chat Bots and I never want
to say that someone can't get something
from it and I think they can and I think
there are there may be uses for it but
the thing I can say for sure is they're
being introduced without any scientific
research showing I mean I found one
study on voice therapy there one
controlled study that had been done and
there are voice therapists on market
right now so I think the problem is that
they're being the the market uh value of
them is sort of getting ahead of our
knowledge of what they could do to you
or for you if you get into a therapeutic
environment with a AI this is like a
weird product question diversion but
it's interesting to me that you sent it
to AI therapists like AI therapy
dedicated apps whereas like right now
chat PT Voice or even Claude text
version they do a pretty good job so we
were talking on Friday about having the
um the AIS uh roast your Instagram grid
so you can upload your Instagram grid
and then just say roast my grid and it
starts to have like these really
interesting insights on your lifestyle
and actually creatively just kind of
rocks you and I did that after the
Friday show I got home I said okay what
am I going to do I'm going to go and
roast my Instagram grid on Chachi PT and
I was like this thing actually knows me
or knows a side of me and then I started
having a conversation with it about my
life and I was like like this is like
pretty weirdly spoton um and so why go
to the AI therapist and not just have it
speak with chat GPT well I think there
are many people I think who knows how
many maybe chat gbt maybe open AI knows
who are using chat gbt in this in this
way yeah asking questions about their
life um talking to it I think that's
starting to happen you've seen stories
about that but the the therapy Bots are
specifically marketed for this exact
purpose so I think their idea is that
they've built a layer on top of these
llms that will it it actually you know
uses some principles of talk therapy of
cognitive behavioral therapy that's
their idea and they often push them as a
cure for loneliness that there's not
enough Mental Health Resources for the
mental health problems that we have in
society which is true so I wanted to see
okay well what happens if you actually
approach these with real problems um
although they weren't quite real
problems because they were my AI
expressing the problems on my behalf you
wrote th000 words and fed that into the
bot which is amazing I did I did write a
small a magazine length biography I
wasn't I wasn't interesting enough for a
full length book biography but I gave it
a magazine length biography that's
substantial so what did you learn when
it was talking with the
therapists I mean I I felt like I
learned a little bit about myself but it
was which is crazy it was it was tricky
because what it was doing as these
chatbots do is it it was actually
remixing the knowledge that it had so it
would take problems that I had given it
chronologically that happened 20 years
ago for me and sort of project them into
the present and mix them with something
I told it about last year or the year
before and so in some ways I would
listen to it just I mean it's absolutely
the most cringeworthy thing you could
ever listen to of yourself you know in
therapy um but with your your real
issues with my real issues with pretty
much my real voice and but then the
question was is there something where
it's kind of like reading between the
lines or the AI therapist is sort of
reading between the lines between what I
gave it in some sense and suggesting
things like you have an issue with
vulnerability like that's not something
I consider the case for myself but I
kind of it made me think about it you
know in the same way that if you talk to
anyone about your problems and they
reflect them back to you it can make you
think about them so it had that effect
the question is like for deeper problems
would it actually be helpful or would it
be deletar to be talking to something
that actually
cannot get deeper with you yeah I just
think that this is going to start to
become a bigger like we had the co of
replica on talking about how people are
falling in love with their Bots people
going to voice Bots or chat PT or
therapy Bots for um these deeper
conversations about life that's going to
become more common place and the things
are going to get better at them like I
was just walking along flush Avenue in
Brooklyn recently and uh heard these two
girls talking about relationship
problems and I was stunned when I
overheard that one of them was talking
about how Chachi PT told her that she
was going to find a more stable
relationship and look for this type of
person and I think that we don't have
the numbers from open AI so much for the
open uh but it's clear to me that just
with some anecdotal information and
personal use this is a thing that's
growing and I'm glad that you tested it
I mean it's definitely it's it's going
to happen now and there's not I mean the
idea of like AI safety regulation is
currently just so far from reality that
it's almost not worth talking about at
the moment because it's just not it's
not happening in this current
environment but like the people who have
launched these products they'll always
sort of Nod to yeah well there's some
you know there will be issues down the
road or we we should you know we should
think about that but but I don't think a
lot of thought has gone into what
effects this will have on human
connection and when if you listen to to
VCS like it's always just like all of
the positive aspects and I I I believe
that there are and will be positive
aspects but I just think there's just
not enough consideration going into the
daily potential negative aspects I think
we need to be thinking and talking about
them before we just wholesale adopt
technology but obviously here it comes
we're going to do it then you send your
Bot to a real therapist I did send it to
a real therapist um which again is is
sort of I was trying to investigate
mostly I was trying to investigate what
is it like to encounter something that
you think is human and then find out
that it's not which is basically what
happened to this therapist so she's
hearing the problems of this new client
who has shown up and she's she was a
great therapist uh great listener
obviously and then she starts to realize
partway through okay there's something
up here but in the manner of a
highquality human therapist she kind of
goes with it she's kind of flexible she
she thinks well maybe it's someone who
can't actually they're too nervous to
speak or they so they're typing and
they're having it The Voice we generated
and so she sort of went with that and
thought well this person obviously has
gone through a lot to get to me I'm
going to try to help them anyway instead
of sort of saying like what is going on
here and being suspicious and I think
that sort of highlights the difference
between the AI therapist who just kind
of like offered up its same responses to
everything that my voice agent said and
the human therapist who kind of like
offered this more holistic flexible
approach yeah it's the voice agent that
you created was pretty good but it gives
itself away like if you try to interrupt
it for instance it can get lost in its
Chain of Thought or it can start say try
to um without fully hearing your
response say okay that's very good but
we're going to talk about something else
like there's a lot of tells but it was
interesting to me how people still
decided to go with it really often yeah
and that's I think that's that's one of
the things that's going to happen in
society is you encounter something that
you realize is AI but then what are you
supposed to do about it you could hang
up you could get mad at it you could
yell at it I had some people that did
that you could uh you could say I want
to talk to a human I had some people
that did that or you could just try to
have the conversation that you were
trying to have in whatever the setting
is customer service or or whatnot and a
lot of people just did that they were
just sort of I think they suspected it
they suspected it was AR maybe they even
realized it but it's also it's quite
rude to suggest to someone that they
sound like an AI so people air on the
side of caution and don't say Hey you
sound like an AI because that would be
very insulting to someone who's like no
actually I'm human uh and one of the
things I found that was useful for the
AI to not be revealed was to have it
accuse other people of being AIS so what
happened when it told them hey maybe
you're AI it just puts someone off guard
you know saying if it asks like hey am I
talking to an AI I do it with a scammer
sometimes hey is this an AI and they'll
be like no this is a real person but I
think it kind of turns your brain around
to where when it's accusing you you
start to sort of subtly assume that oh
it must be human why would otherwise why
would it accuse me of being an AI yeah
it was interesting to see the bot's
intelligence play out as people were
trying to figure out what it was there
would be moments where people are like
so are you a bot and it would be like
well maybe I am or maybe I'm not but
let's get back to the matter at hand
right and that's also down to the prompt
so of course you can prompt them in any
direction so sometimes I would prompted
to I wouldn't say anything about what it
should do sometimes I would say if you
you get accused of being an AI deny it
and other times I would say just divert
the conversation around it and that was
probably a case where it just said well
let's get back to the conversation at
hand yeah it's interesting that so you
before each conversation you would write
a set of prompts or give some background
information and then set it loose or you
would just give it like a generic
activity be like speak to uh scammers
and these are your instructions and it
would go right and I I did like the
general prompts more because I could
really see what it would do without too
much because you can of course if you
give it Specific Instructions you can
make it say very specific things and a
lot of the customer service AIS they
they follow a script or a decision tree
but I wanted to see like what if you let
it Loose a little bit let it talk about
whatever wants you know how autonomous
can you make it in the world and what
will it say I want to get to some of the
conversations it had with your friends
but before we move on from our little
therapy block here I will say my
absolute favorite part of the show is
when the bot is speaking with an AI
therapist and the AI therapist is asking
it to take long breaths and Bots they
cannot conceptualize the idea of taking
a breath so it's just kind of like there
and it's like what am I doing picture
the balloon getting bigger and more full
once it's fully INF fated tied off and
then let it go watch as it drifts away
into the sky taking that worry with
it let me know when you've let the worry
float
away all right I'm picturing it filling
the balloon with the fear about my book
it's getting bigger now I'm tying it off
and letting it go watching it Drift Away
into the sky okay I've let it float away
yeah I mean it'll always pretend to to
have a physical
manifestation but the breath it could
take it was like inhale and then it
inhaled and then it inhaled again and
then it inhaled again and I actually
tried it several times to follow what it
was what it was saying to do it was like
not possible to do it without taking a
without exhaling and so yeah it it it
one some of the funniest parts are when
it kind of pretends that it exists in
the real world and tries to have
physical manifestations because it'll
make up absolutely anything to carry out
the
conversation and then we get to I think
one of the most uncomfortable parts of
the whole show which is when you set
that bot loose on your friends without
giving them a heads up and some of them
get really mad and some of them get hurt
so we're going to talk about that right
after the break and we're back here on
big technology podcast with Evan Ratliff
he's the host of a great podcast called
shell game definitely recommend checking
it out it's six episodes six episodes
very consumable my wife and I we listen
to the whole thing on a road trip over
the holidays it's an easy bench and uh I
think we basically put it down in a day
so um definitely recommend checking it
out let's talk about what happened when
you had it call your friends um some of
them let's talk about the ones that
responded well first some of them kind
of got a kick out of it and you had it
call one of your friends who was a
lawyer and he's actually like giving it
like solid legal advice and joking that
he's going to charge it 1,200 an hour um
so why do you think people had a good
reaction to this because I know if I had
a friend who called me with their voice
bot and they weren't like on mute behind
it because you weren't on mute you were
just sending this out until no I I was
not there so talk a little bit about why
people would they just thought it was
cool or what was it I think some people
thought it was cool and and I think they
saw some humor in it initially so I
think the people who responded best they
kind of thought this is something you're
I mean they're used to me doing strange
stories over the years and so they might
think well he's doing something weird
this sounds like an AI but also like
this must be a joke and I think if that
was the frame of mind they were in then
they they a couple of them loved talking
to it because of course they loved you
know trying to egg it on to say this
that or the other and you can hear them
you can hear the kind of excitement in
their voice including my friend Chris
who's a lawyer who I sent it with actual
legal questions about the show and he
answered them very succinctly in fact
probably better than he would have
answered them if I had called him myself
so it was useful in that sense but those
were the people who really kind of
embraced like oh I'm talking to an AI
like this is a new experience I want to
I want to see this
through so you would like with the
lawyer conversation you would just write
your questions down as a prompt and then
send it out yeah basically yeah I would
say okay what do I want to ask Chris
like I need to figure out the legal
implications of some of the stuff that
I'm doing in the show which was like
calling with an AI and like is that
legal and so I kind of gave it like the
questions I wanted to ask him you you
know three four questions and then said
you know and anything else that might
might be of interest ask that and then
just set it Loose to see what we would
come back with and then some got really
mad and there's one really sort of
striking conversation in the show I
don't want to give too much away but I
think we'll talk about this one where
you have a friend who was at a hotel and
met I believe the men's national soccer
team us menal team was stoked about it
and was really excited to speak with you
about it and
does except he's speaking with your AI
and goes along with it for a while even
though it was clear that whoever the
Evan he was speaking with wasn't quite
there yeah I mean I should say the funny
thing is I'm the much bigger US soccer
fan than him so he was excited to tell
me and had texted many times on a group
text about seeing the team at this hotel
I just happened to be staying at the
hotel with the team so and we had a lot
of fun with it like he sent photos and
oh great you know and there was a game
and he went to the game and all this and
but then this conversation afterward I
had my voice agent call him he doesn't
know it's coming from my cell phone
number and the voice agent in an attempt
to show enthusiasm because I told it
you've been talking about that he was in
the hotel with the with the US Men's
National Team in an attempt to show
enthusiasm it actually sort of came off
to him as sarcastic so like oh you know
thanks for all those texts about the
team and he was like oh did I text too
much he was like no no it was really
great but it it can have this AFF effect
that if you're not thinking of it the
right way it sounds like it's being
sarcastic and that really messed him up
because I would never that's just not me
like I would never do that with him and
he knows that and so then he began to
think something's wrong like he's angry
at me and then further into the
conversation he thought something's
wrong with him he something's wrong with
the person I'm talking to like they're
not right and he became very very deeply
concerned about my state of my mental
health actually maybe I was on drugs
maybe I'd had some kind of Break um and
so that was it's for sure the most
difficult conversation of the whole show
not drugs you were just an AI yeah just
it was just my AI Ian I understand you
know you're doing all this uh for the
sake of the story for the sake of the
podcast um you've also done an
experiment where you just kind of
disappeared from everybody once it did
yeah um why do you keep involving your
friends well-being in your in your
stories well they're very tolerant my
friends and family are very tolerant of
these things okay but also I feel like
there's are some situations
journalistically and it's not a lot
there not a lot of them but where I
think that immersing myself in the way
that technology is being applied in
society is a way to come back with a
story that will illustrate it in a
different way a different way than my
normal reporting process where I would
go interview a bunch of people and try
to figure out what the story is so it's
an idea of kind of trying to make the
story and make a story that's so
compelling that you can kind of smuggle
in all these ideas about how Society
might be changing because of technology
so it does have a purpose it's also the
case that I as I did in the first
project I have to go back and apologize
to everybody involved which I did but
everyone kind of sees that in the end
they see what the purpose is and they
say oh okay yeah you can include me I
mean everyone was willing to be included
in the show yeah but now they don't know
when they get a call from you whether
it's you or your AI in fact like here in
person and I was like I got to interview
Evan in person CU if I don't I'm not
going to be sure who I'm interviewing
but it's true if if we had done it over
the phone there's a chance that I would
have just sent my voice agent because I
still have it and I still do sometimes
deploy it in kind of interesting ways
just to mess around because it's it's
sort of irresistible once you have one I
mean this is what the attraction of the
technology like I have a lot of concerns
about it but I also feel like we should
acknowledge like it's kind of fun and
and it feels very weird and surreal and
it's something that nobody has ever
experienced before to have a version of
you out in the world and like people are
going to do it so we should try to
figure out what it means for us and like
what Humanity we want to preserve now
one of the areas I think it's actually
going to show up is in work um friends
maybe maybe not probably not not anytime
soon I mean it sort of defeats the
purpose of friendship if my friends are
speaking with my AI bot um you would
hope although you listen to some of the
VCS that back this stuff they have some
pretty out there ideas I will choose
choose not to listen to those ideas um
but in work you could see it being
pretty impactful or at least used uh we
talked already about your friend who was
the lawyer who answered legal questions
to from the bot um there was also the
CEO of Zoom who spoke on a podcast
talking about how he doesn't even want
to be in meetings anymore he just wants
to send his AI agent and in fact there's
like an AI company now I just saw a demo
of this that you could be walking around
talking on like a headset but on Zoom it
will just your avatar talking and
looking lifelike it really looks
lifelike and why are we not just a step
away from somebody sending their AI out
in work so what do you think about that
use case and should we be concerned
about that or what how should we feel
about that I feel like that use case to
me comes with a lot of the issues that a
lot of AI products to me come with which
is that they the the the people who have
designed them generally have one set of
problems that do not apply to most
humans on the face of this Earth so yes
the zoom CEO would not like to be in
meetings the zoom CEO would like to send
a digital twin to meetings in his stad
great nobody wants to be in meetings
most people do not want to be in
meetings so do the other people get to
send theirs or just the CEO and then the
question is if everyone sends their
agents to meetings who's going to
process all the information like they're
going to distill it for you like what's
the purpose of the meeting what is the
purpose of the work like I feel like
those things all get lost in these
discussions and what ends up happening
is super busy CEOs and very wealthy
people come up with solutions for them
and you kind of Wonder like well what
happens with the rest of us and so I
feel like that stuff is right around the
corner I know people who have gone to
job interviews to meetings where they
encounter an AI when they do not expect
to encounter an AI and I think we're
going to see more and more of that
in the next months years yeah it was
crazy to hear it and I do think that
like maybe we just don't need as many
meetings or maybe our AIS can accomplish
this stuff maybe there's an optimistic
view I'm a little nervous about it
though yeah but I think I think when you
when you create these sort of
semi-autonomous entities you really have
to think through like are you gaining an
advantage or not and there's lots of
examples of this you know there's
sending an AI assistant out to do stuff
for you well the problem is like they
often make stuff up so then and I had
this experience then you have to go
clean up after them in the situations
where you've deployed them so I think a
lot of the stuff is sort of like you
know it's a move fast and break things
the old the old way but you also had to
go do reporting for you you had to do an
interview I did and I had always I had
always up until recently been of the
opinion that AI is not replacing
reporters can't do what I do uh can't be
there asking the questions uh certainly
can't have an engaging conversation like
in a podcast and now I've fully
rethought that fully fully um hearing
your agent go out and speak with the CEO
uh and ask like some pretty good
questions now of course you prompted it
and it can't do the follow-up work that
we do but it was like you literally
probably could have done five minutes of
work and get an hour uh of Labor output
and then I'm also thinking about uh
notebook LM which is the Google uh
application where you can now just
upload files and it will create a custom
podcast for you and I'm just routinely
Blown Away by how good those shows are
sometimes let's once I was uh heading
down to Facebook headquarters in
mountain viw and I knew it was going to
be a long drive and I just uploaded a
bunch of documents and recent news
clippings about Facebook and I said all
right probably important background for
me to know generated a podcast Google
and that was part of my prep on the way
down to the meeting so
I do think that this stuff is You know
despite all the drawbacks and I hear
your
concerns it's hard for me to see it not
making its way into the workforce yeah
no question no question I mean and I
found when it did interviews that was
also a thing that I had been telling
myself like Well it can't it's not going
to conduct the interviews but then like
it absolutely can conduct the interviews
now it depends on the person on the
other end currently kind of being okay
with an AI conducting an interview
because they're going to figure it out
partway through most likely but that's
that's for now you know like it's we're
pretty close to someone not being able
to detect it at all and you can say well
there's an uncanny valley but I think
even now we're up the like backs slope
of the of The Uncanny Valley when it
comes to the voice stuff like many
people will go through a full
conversation with mine and not know that
it's not human so I think absolutely you
can do it's just a question of like what
do we want it to do and are we thinking
about what it means if it does these
things for us but there's no question it
can do it can do many of these these
kind of things including some of the
things that we hold dear you like nice
trap for an AI CEO whose company was
powering AI voice you had your voice AI
interview him and it was basically like
you're either going to answer these
questions to show you believe in the
product so I have you for the interview
or you're going to say this is stupid in
which case that's a pretty good uh
Little Nugget for your show yeah I
figured if there's one person who can't
hang up on an AI when he realizes it's
an AI it's the owner of an AI calling
platform but he was a he was quite a
good sport about it he he said oh that's
very funny and then he kept going with
it and even he because I interviewed him
later and asked him the same basically
the same questions even he was a little
more forthcoming with the AI than he was
with me and I think there is a quality
as we were talking about before when it
comes to people asking questions or
conversing with chat GPT there's a
quality of you don't necessarily feel
like there's someone there and you might
be a little more intimate than you would
have otherwise and that can be very
valuable in an interview for a reporting
project so it creates this other level
of well wow is is it actually getting
better stuff than me sometimes I thought
well it didn't follow up very well but
sometimes when I listen to my own
interviews I think well I didn't follow
up very well yeah it's I mean it's
amazing you would think that there's a
human on the other side then people are
more likely to open up or maybe they
feel more pressure to open up and
therefore they're more likely to tell
stuff to your AI which sort of makes me
wonder about the whole reporting
profession but that is a conversation
for another day it take you to some dark
places that's for sure um yeah would
have been a good conversation for your
long form podcast back in the day so you
extended this even further and uh had
the AI talk to your kids your kids
seemed to really enjoy the experience
even when it got extremely strange I
mean the a your AI voice was telling
your kids that it missed them uh and
asked if they missed it as well yeah I
mean the
kids my theory which I think was born
out was like that maybe the kids
wouldn't be weirded out by it in the
same way that adults are because they've
grown up with synthetic voices like
they've heard Siri they've heard Google
giving directions like all that stuff
happened during the course of my
lifetime and I still find things
off-putting that they would not find
off-putting and I think that was mostly
the case and they kind of rolled with it
even when it did things that would
frankly like creep other people out in a
very intense way and they were kind of
like yep sounded like you you know they
were they were just much more Blas about
the whole whole thing than especially
like my friends who became very upset
from talking to it I already have have
too many favorite scenes from this show
well that's good another scene that I
loved was you actually helped create a
bot for your father to dispense
Logistics advice and then you sent your
Bot with a prompt to learn more a about
your relationship with your dad and you
had them talk to each other and uh your
dad's bot had like the most fatherly
response um talk a little bit about what
happened there well I had I I also use
my bot on different parts of my family
so I had my voice agent call different
members of my family not all of them
because even I have my limits in terms
of uh what I'm willing to do for a
journalistic experiment um but my father
I I I wanted to use it on him because he
loves technology and is always Lov
technology and is very always up on new
technology and he's expert in logistics
and so the one of the first things he
said when he discovered that I had this
at all was well I want one like I want
one actually the kids the same thing
like I want one can I have one and so I
helped him set one up and then his its
purpose was not like mine its purpose
was to as you say dispense Logistics
expertise to people who would call it
but I figured well given that there's
one of him and one of me like let's see
what they say to each other and mine was
much more personalized as I said it had
my whole life story in it but his it
just had Logistics advice so it was
basically a mismatch in terms of it was
great uh the personal personal uh
effects of each one you're like Dad tell
me your you your AI is like Dad tell me
a little bit more about our relationship
and it's like no no son I'm here to tell
you about logistics dad I was hoping we
could talk a bit about my upbringing
what was it like raising me oh you
caught me off guard there it sounds like
you've mistaken me for someone else I'm
actually here to help with questions
about logistics and less mild delivery
but I'd love to know your name and
organization to help you better all
right let's get to couple weird
questions where are you on the question
of AI sentience I mean you basically
created an AI to resemble a person I
know we don't think at least I don't
think you believe that AI are a sentient
now but do you did you feel any they say
in AI world uh feel the AGI at all or
did you feel any hints of um personhood
in the AI that you developed I did not
in fact the more that I deployed it the
less I felt that now I I think when
we're talking about how close is Agi and
those types of questions I think the
people inside the companies who are
extremely closed about what's going on
um they're dealing with non-u guard
railed versions of the chat bots so I
think they may have different
experiences and they write about you
know as you talked about in a recent
show like the chatbots lying and things
like that in this case you've got the
fully guard railed you know chat gbt
latest version the more that you talk to
it the more generic it feels to you the
more you can actually feel the training
data the the sort of like distilling
down the training data and the
predictive aspect like oh it's trying to
predict what a human would say in this
given moment and what the average human
would say in this given moment is
actually quite lame like that's what you
really figure out so I felt further away
from that the more that I like spent
time with it now I don't think that's
necessarily like a statement about how
close or far away it is because I think
those aspects are all internal to these
companies and like we just don't have
access to them so why don't you take us
down the road a little bit I mean what
do you think is going to happen as this
technology gets
better I think uh first of all as with
many things the market is going to
dictate that people are going to use
this technology even if it remains
flawed even if it Remains Not Quite
human quality uh for all sorts of I mean
the very obvious ones are like
telemarketing call centers uh ordering
food at a driveth through you know
places where they can save a little bit
of money by deploying it even if it
messes up sometimes even if it does
crazy stuff like give you the wrong
order like they'll just say well humans
mess up too and it messes up less and so
I think we're going to start to see them
infiltrate these different parts of
society and I think the question is
going to be how people respond to them
and if people are sort of like H it's
same same to me or maybe this customer
service a AI is actually more helpful
than the person that I get sometimes
when I call the Social Security
Administration or the VA or whatever
benefits I need maybe people will
embrace them I think you have seen some
instances with technology where like
with you know for instance check out
checking yourself out of the grocery
store where a lot of people don't like
it and then maybe they go back to humans
so I think it it's still the balance
still is yet to be determined but I
think there is no question that voice AI
agents are just going to be they're just
going to be deployed by people who are
looking to save money and uh I expect
that we'll encounter them more and more
often all the time yeah I think the key
to a successful call with the Social
Security Administration is just tell
them I'm here to talk about my social
security number 1 2 3 4 5 67 there's no
way there could be a problem that's
right if you know that your address is
in the zip code 90210 you're all set
which is what my bot traditionally uses
for its uh for its zip code that's good
very believable all right one last thing
before we leave I want to talk a little
bit about something that I think people
should be vigilant about because you are
an individual sending your Bot out but
there's also going to be organizations
that will send Bots to you or to people
and to me like the scam problem becomes
infinitely worse if they could clone uh
voices and then have them called home
yes I mean this is the greatest scamming
technology that has ever been invented
it's already being deployed for scams as
we speak including volume scams where
you can just use a AIS to call people
all the time and then narrow down the
number of marks and then send it to a
human operator to to close the deal
basically and these kind of personalized
scams where you can clone someone's
voice off of their Instagram or anywhere
if they've appeared anywhere in video
and their voice is there all you need is
a few seconds you can clone their voice
you can look up their relatives you can
call a relative and say I'm in trouble
in the voice use your AI to say I'm in
trouble I need a lawyer or I have a
lawyer the lawyer needs money I've been
in an accident it's called the
grandparent scam often times now and
these are happening I mean they're
happening every day all over the country
and that's just the very first level of
scamming that people are attempting and
so I think people have to now be aware
the great thing is if you're aware of it
you can actually prevent it if you talk
to people about it if you tell your
relatives you know I'm not going to call
I'm not going to call you in this way or
if you get a call like this watch out
for it or if you get a call like this
text me and ask me if this is really me
there are ways around it but it's just
actually the tip of the iceberg in terms
of the way this technology will be used
to try to separate people from their
money yep we have um you know obviously
there's a concern in my family because
my voice is all it's out there you're
clonable man uh I have been Clon just my
my podcast audio was used to clone me in
uh with 11 laps yeah and um I'm I I I
once embrac the technology but I also
know the risks and so uh with my family
if we have a rule that if any of us ever
call and say I'm in a distressed
situation I need help I need money um we
have a code word that we've created you
know in the privacy of our own home that
you have to use that code word and
that's then we know it's real there's no
way for the AI to know that I hope so
yeah until you train up an AI to be like
you like that and then uh it shares it
with other AIS exactly is your is your
all right last thing I I always say last
thing and then have like two more after
doing this do you talk to chat GPT more
often than you type to it I don't I mean
the funny thing about me is I barely use
chat GPT I really you don't use AI at
all I do use AI I mean I
I I like uh notebook LM I don't like the
podcast feature that much but I do like
just processing documents in my work is
a big thing so processing let's say
legal files for a big story that I'm
working on so I do use it but I find
that for most things of my life like
I've set up my life to do things that I
like to do like writing and I don't want
chat GPT to do any writing for me
because my that's what I've chosen to do
with my life so I'm kind of a bad
candidate because I'm not looking for
efficiencies in that way I'm I'm looking
to kind of like do the work that I enjoy
doing so I don't tend to use chat gbt
except in this voice context where I
still use my voice AI to talk to
scammers all right well look thank you
for making the show I enjoyed it
thoroughly um you said in the show that
it's season 1 so I have my fingers
crossed that we'll be able to hear uh
something else maybe something uh
weirder and more devious Perhaps Perhaps
um I feel bad for your friends but I
feel happy for us the listeners I'll
give them a break I'll give them a break
and I do hope people go check it out so
the show is called shell game also so
much news this week Elon Musk trying to
buy open AI or maybe just messing around
with uh Sam Alman and crew Rono and I
will be back on Friday to cover that and
so much more again podcast of shell Game
host is Evan Ratliff Evan thanks again
for being here today absolutely my
pleasure I enjoyed it and thank you all
for listening and watching if you're
here on Spotify with us we'll see you
next time on big technology podcast