AI Device Wars Heat Up, RIP Metaverse?, Netflix Acquires Warner Brothers

Channel: Alex Kantrowitz

Published at: 2025-12-08

YouTube video id: FuhitIkkskQ

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuhitIkkskQ

The AI device wars are officially on as
Meta Poach's top Apple talent. Is the
metaverse dead? It's code red for Chad
Shept and Netflix agrees to buy Warner
Brothers Discovery. That's coming up on
a Big Technology Podcast Friday edition
right after this. Welcome to Big
Technology Podcast Friday edition where
we break down the news in our
traditional, coolheaded, and nuanced
[music] format. We have a great show for
you today. We're going to talk all about
the AI device wars now that Meta [music]
has poached Apple's top design talent.
Uh we're also going to touch on the end
of [music] the metaverse or that's what
it looks like. Code Red for Chad GPT.
And then we're going to break down this
Netflix deal for Warner Brothers
Discovery. We are here fittingly in
studio [music]
uh at Spotify uh and we're joined as
always by Ron John Roy of Margins. Ran
John, welcome. I'm excited to be here in
this studio at Spotify and uh and
talking hardware in just a moment.
That's right.
>> Not just Chat GPT again, but hardware.
>> That's right. And I say fittingly
because um it's Spotify rap week and uh
I can say uh it's been amazing to get so
many notifications uh from people who
listen to and watch this show saying
that uh Big Technology Podcast has been
among their top or has been their top
show uh this year. I know I've received
many of those. I think you
>> I've received it from some friends. I
loved I loved hearing it and it makes me
feel good because my own Spotify rap is
always kind of painful. I have a
six-year-old son and K-pop Demon Hunters
was my number one song.
>> They have great songs.
>> They do have great songs. It is actually
and when we get into the Netflix thing,
I've actually dug into that whole story
as well from a business standpoint. So,
we'll get into that. But what was your
listening age, Alex?
>> I was 31, which made me feel good
because I'm in the band but maybe a
little younger. I mine was 57 which was
even more problematic that between the
six-year-old songs I listen to a lot of
60s7s music. So
>> Okay. So they're just averaging it out.
>> We averaged out to 57.
>> So without the kids you'd be like 110.
>> Yeah. [laughter] It literally said you
are an old soul. So I am I am
>> but not when it comes to technology.
>> No technology. We are youthful and spry
and ready [laughter] to analyze all the
stuff that's going on. But yeah, one
more note on this. If you do see us in
your wrapped, whether it's on Spotify,
YouTube, wherever, share it. We'll we'll
like it. We'll try to distribute as many
of these as we can. So, uh thank you for
that. Okay. Uh this week, very
interesting week. So much tech news as
always, but the big story uh for me was
the fact that um a seemingly ho move uh
turned into uh a much bigger story for
me. and that was that Apple's head of
unit user interface design Allan Dy
along with a deputy and maybe some other
team members went over to Meta Meta
poached them. Uh they're going to put
them on their uh AI uh enabled glasses
the ray the Meta Ray-B bands and the
Meta Ray-B bands display which of course
has a screen in it. They're going to
bring some Apple sensibilities uh over
into these Meta glasses. It's
complicated because according to
reports, it's not exactly the best
talent that Apple's had, and we'll get
into that. Uh, but I do think that this
really does kick off the AI device wars.
Now, you have Meta, you have Amazon, you
have Apple, you have OpenAI, and and
Google all in the mix and this is going
to be a very very big deal uh moving
forward. So, um, your reaction just
briefly on the the decision of these
Apple executives to move to Meta and the
significance of it. Yeah, we h I I also
like that you added OpenAI to that
actual roster even though they have not
actually announced their physical device
yet, but
>> they're teasing.
>> We're going to get So, we're going to go
company by company.
>> Yeah, we're going to go company. Yeah.
So, so I thought it was incredibly
interesting again. Yeah. Apple
executives going over to Meta and we're
going to get into who these Apple
executives are and and and incredible
Gruber piece on that one. But we've been
saying this for a while like Meta is the
coolest company right now in physical
devices. I never would have thought I
would have said that Meta Raybands are
probably from like a hardware standpoint
the most interesting and useful hardware
and physical device I have tried or I I
own a pair now in the last couple of
years. So I think they are incredibly
interesting and also the fact that it's
it's no longer the metaverse VR like
it's this whole new form factor and
surface area. So it has to be
interesting if that's what your
specialty is. Yeah, I thought that this
poaching and again, we're going to get
into the talent side of it, but it it
definitely took on this feeling of
maturity of the space beyond just like
this is a nent thing with a bunch of
kooky startups like and the rabbit ar
and the friend pendant. Like when you
start seeing the poaching of top talent
from one uh company to another, you know
you're you're in a war and you know it's
sort of like the starting bell of
something very big that's about to come.
>> Yeah. And the fact that Meta is going to
be like we we said it a maybe a couple
of months ago. I remember you said it
and it had not occurred to me but that
Meta is now going to be Apple's biggest
competitor in the hardware space. And I
never thought that that could be the
possible or the case, but I really think
that will be the case. And I think Mark
Zuckerberg, ever since iOS 14.5 and uh
Apple trying to kneecap meta and them
actually coming out of it stronger than
ever, has probably just been waiting for
this moment for a long time.
>> That's right. Well,
>> go right at Tim and Apple. They so hated
the fact that they have to go through
the iOS system to reach their users that
they have been dead set on building the
next operating system whether it was uh
in virtual or mixed reality with their
uh meta with the Oculus purchase and the
Quest and all that uh or now uh getting
into AI. Let let's get into the talent a
little bit.
>> Let's get into the talent. This was
amazing. So obviously you see the head
of us user interface design leave Apple
and you're like oh like uh major coup
for Meta. Um and to me I think it's a
little mean but the best uh oneliner
that I've seen about this move is that
the IQ of both Meta and Apple have gone
up because of this exit. Um, John
Gruber, obviously a friend of the show,
somebody who is a uh a a very close
Apple watcher, has been for years, has
been largely praised praise praised
Apple uh uh frequently up until
recently. Um uh did not have nice things
to say about Allan Dy. Uh he wrote Allan
Dy is not untalented, but his talent,
this guy who led user interface design
at Apple, but his talents at Apple were
in politics. His political skill was so
profound that it was his decision to
leave despite the fact that his tenure
is considered a disaster by actual
designers inside and outside the
company. And he says also it's rather I
mean this is no punches pulled here.
It's rather extraordinary in today's
hyperartisan world that there's nearly
universal agreement among actual
practitioners of user interface design
that Allan Dy is a fraud who led the
company deeply astray. It was a big
problem inside the company, too. I'm
aware of dozens of designers who left
Apple out of frustration over the
company's direction. I'm not sure there
are any interaction designers at OpenAI
working on this joint venture IO who
weren't axe Apple and if there are it is
it's only a handful from the stories I'm
aware of. The theme is identical. uh
these are designers that these are
designers driven to do great work and
under Allen die doing great work was no
longer the guiding principle at Apple.
Uh is it I mean is it possible that both
companies win here because Meta does get
someone who may not be an A player at
Apple may have been great at Apple
politics but still has Apple design
sensibilities and Apple gets some fresh
blood at the top of their user interface
design. But the thing is like I I'm
having trouble with it because meta the
Ray-B bands as I said actually have been
done in a really interesting way. like
the simplicity of it is what you want in
a UI in any kind of new device that's
trying to incorporate a bit of AI into
it and just just like making it simple
useful which were the core Apple design
principles for so long but we've seen
the last three to five maybe seven years
I mean everything about Apple UI has
gotten more complex messy
difficult like even uh like you know
vision pro aside just the core IO OS has
just it used to be this like simple
thing that was a pleasure to use. Now
anytime I remember like using a friend's
Windows computer and I had not touched
Windows in a long time and I was like oh
wait this is actually just as good if
not better. So so I think like is it
going to actually be net beneficial for
Meta or will it actually bring
potentially like problems to Meta when
they have momentum?
>> What do you think?
See, I I I guess I I don't know exactly
like what was he responsible for at what
time within Apple.
>> He I mean he basically all these big
initiatives within Apple the design of
the uh operating system of the vision
pro vision OS that was him liquid glass
that was him.
>> See that doesn't that doesn't bode well.
I'm saying like if it was yeah the the
Johnny IV era or like the like the it's
been a long time since Apple truly from
a design perspective has had like this
like beauty and competitive edge and was
just something just so different from
the rest of the industry and that's what
Meta probably I know that's what they
want but I don't think this is going to
bring that to them. Well, I I still
think it's a win for Meta because I
think that somebody who is steeped in
the Apple design process. Bringing at a
sprinkle of that into the meta design
process uh will be good. Um I will say
liquid glass is terrible. I've had to
turn off I picked up the 17 Pro this
week after speaking with MG Seagler on
Monday. Great phone. Liquid glass sucks.
I've had to turn off like as many of the
liquid glass features as I can. Um,
>> what exactly is it? Because I have not
enabled it. I have I'm still 15 Pro Max
and actually not looking to upgrade. So,
>> uh, it is it it basically makes a lot of
things look translucent and I I couldn't
look at it anymore. I got I got sick of
looking at the time on my lock screen,
which was like it looked like it was
etched in there and like a like a fifth
grader did it. I just hated it so much I
turned it off. This is the thing that
like so many of these little efforts
that are so designy like even Siri right
now like when you press it on your phone
and you get the like the the border of
your phone kind of like lighting up in
this it looks kind of cool yet Siri is
more terrible than ever and we're far
far away from improving. So like it
feels like yeah that a lot of the energy
really went to not functional like use
case utilization and making people's
lives easier but just things that like
just were so designery that that's and
that's not going to help Meta the
Raybands work cuz it really is clear
that no one was overly precious about
like trying to be too designy and
they're like let's just make this
brutally functional which I think is a
different philosophy
Okay. Well, you know what's interesting
about this? Um, we're talking about user
interface design and of course the
Rayban Meta displays, right, are the
this new pair of glasses that have a
screen on them and Meta has obviously
been working on the screen. Uh,
>> but ultimately an AI what is an AI
device? We we don't fully know what it's
going to look like. Is it going to be a
hockey puck? Is it going to be a
pendant? Is it going to be a pair of a
pin? Okay. Is it going to be a pair of
glasses? Is it going to be the AirPods
with their translation and Siri inside?
It can be a variety of these things. But
notice what comes to mind as I start
speaking about all these various
devices.
>> It's not a screen.
>> It's an assistant inside. Whoever has
the best AI is going to have a real
chance of winning here as long as they
package it correctly. Now, user
interface design can also be design of a
voice user interface, I imagine. But I
think with that in mind, we should just
go one by one with all the companies
that have big push in the space and talk
a little bit about whether they can win
or not. And let's start with Apple. If
Apple puts the same Siri in there,
they're not going to win. Doesn't matter
who's running design.
>> No, I think Apple is the by far the
worst position for this. Not only is
Siri still just unbelievably terrible,
this has been years now I've been saying
this, but I've seen no improvement, but
they are a screen first company. They
they invented the mobile screen at le or
at least you know like the mobile broad
>> it looks better than the Blackberry.
>> Yes. Exactly. I mean the the the like
touchscreen bringing it to the world
making it a beautiful experience that is
the single core like you know selling
point of Apple. That's what they own.
They have not shown the ability to
actually come up with any kind of
innovation on any other kind of true UI.
So I I don't think they're well
positioned. What about
>> Okay. I don't think so either. I mean
what are they going to They're going to
run, right? They just, by the way, so
speaking of Apple, uh, Alice Intrigue,
the head of uh of Apple AI, John G.
Andrea, he's gone. And now they brought
in um a new executive who had come from
Apple uh but had also uh spent 16 years
at Google. And I my hot take on that is
he's there to do the Gemini integration.
So, are your smart glasses going to be
Gemini glasses? If you're Apple, can you
win that way? I don't think so.
>> No. like Google will always have an edge
over you unless I mean okay
>> that's the argument to build your own
model.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But also but I guess
maybe there's a world where Google from
a hardware perspective has always been a
follower like they take
>> Google or Apple
>> Google and they actually I kind of
really want the new Pixel Fold phone. I
saw someone had it and I'm like obsessed
with it now. It's like $1,800 though.
not diving in right away, but still
that's following on Samsung and others
like Google has never shown true
leadership in the hardware space.
>> Google Glass,
>> I mean [laughter]
I mean kind of I guess just 10 years too
early, 15 years too early. Um, but uh,
yeah, I think Google, like Apple, maybe
that's their opportunity if they can
really start to figure out the actual AI
side and still they just know hardware.
Maybe they're screen first, but maybe
that that's the only shot they possibly
have, but it doesn't look great.
>> Yeah. Now, it could be that maybe uh the
AI device that syncs so well with your
phone that it's natural and um, you have
to have it. That could potentially be
like the way that AirPods syncs so well
with the iPhone. That's a benefit. Maybe
even if Apple doesn't have the best
model, it's because it syncs so well
with the phone. But again, like they try
to do that with Apple intelligence. I I
don't know if it's
>> Wait, wait, hold on. Let's Let's work
through this one. I I genuinely believe
like one of the most important
innovations of the AirPods were the W3
chip and how easily they sync. Bluetooth
has gotten a lot better. So now com like
external
earphones actually can sync very well.
But I mean what was it 7 8 years ago
like AirPods the magic of them was you
just put them on and they connected to
your phone, MacBook, iPad very easily.
So So you're right. Maybe the
connectivity can be something. I'm I'm
trying here. I'm trying for Apple.
>> All right. Let's not write them off
completely, but it's going to be an
uphill battle. Meta uh out ahead. We
both have the Meta Rayban glasses. We
like them a lot. Uh, I would say my
primary use for them is uh camera uh
photos and videos. Uh, but there are
times where I don't know. I feel like
it's kind of like old school um Alexa.
I'll ask it for the time. Um, maybe the
weather. Uh, I rarely do I ever say,
"Hey, what am I looking at?" and get
anything interesting from it. Uh, but
they are out ahead. They have a couple
million in market. The smart glasses
market according to Reuters this year
tripled. Um, so I would say that, you
know, they have they have as good a
chance as any, but they've also
struggled on the model building front.
If you're going to put the latest
version of Llama in there, uh, you're
going to be behind Open AI whenever Open
AAI releases whatever it releases.
>> Now, again, same with Ray-B bands, like
the AI functionality, don't use it.
Actually, asking it questions is not
great. I do use the what am I looking at
like with birds and stuff or like
especially like plants what you know
I'll check them out I'll try to see what
I'm looking at [laughter] I'll admit it
I'll admit it
>> yeah that's going to live on the
internet for
>> some kind of nature I like it um but so
so they have a shot but I also think
that like yeah the whoever owns the like
the real estate on your face on your
head whether it's going to be audio in
your here whether it's going to be audio
or visual through the glasses like that
is where the battle takes place as the
starting point but then you have to
deliver the actual intelligence side of
it and agreed meta the AI side has work
is has work to do but still far ahead I
have not have you tried the new display
>> I haven't tried those I tried the Orion
with the full display which are pretty
amazing but I haven't been able to try
uh these new ones but people say good
things about them
>> yeah and I had tried the snap augmented
reality like in developer the developer
environment there augmented reality
glasses. So I am relatively bullish on
the idea of kind of like a a display
little screen sitting there on your
glasses. If they can win that and nail
that I think that's good. I think that
they're well positioned. This is in a
way that they would not have been just a
few years ago.
>> Here's my hot take on Meta. Over the
next year, you will see Meta bring in uh
other AI models. You will see them
partner with Google. You might see them
partner with Open AI.
>> Did they just spend God knows how much
money on
>> I super intelligence lab?
>> I think they did. They spent a lot of
money on talent, but for them winning
the operating system is more important
than having the model.
>> They're calling the operating system
>> the the OS on your smart glasses.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So
>> I think as long as they're they have
control over I mean yes if you bring in
Gemini you would basically license
Gemini and bring it in
>> uh the same way that Apple's going to do
it with Siri. As long as you have the
delivery mechanism that means you own
the device
>> for doing that though. I think like
they're too bought in and
>> here's why I think he's going to do it.
>> Yeah.
>> Uh Apple is going to release its smart
glasses targeted end of next year.
>> Okay.
>> You have to have a better better um
offering than Apple. Period. Yeah. And
>> so even if you have to give up a little
control on the agent side, you do it.
>> Okay. Okay. Either way, well positioned.
>> Well positioned. Let's go to OpenAI. Uh
recently as last month, Sam Alman and
Johnny IV, who've of course came to the
$6.5 billion agreement to work together.
>> Oh my god, I forgot the amount.
>> It's a lot of money. A lot of money. Uh
they are building something that looks
like a smartphone but has no screen.
They say they've settled on a uh a form
factor and the rumors say uh that's what
it is. Um obviously OpenAI comes to it
with one of the best models. So what do
you think?
>> No, I think I'm going to say relatively
well positioned from the model and the
reason I say that is voice mode works
already very well. And actually like
voice has become almost my primary way
of interacting with AI. I use something
called whisper flow. I love it's uh like
you can kind of define your own
dictionary so it starts actually getting
your dictation right. You can ramble and
it'll condense it and clean it up. So
like I believe voice is going to be the
primary way people do interact with AI
and Open AI has already shown that yeah
from a model perspective from like South
Park you know kind of like making fun of
it but it's because it's so good. Um,
that being said, my concern with OpenAI
is just focus and like I mean more came
out this week around them like and their
code red and what projects they're going
to focus on and what they're going to
delay like they're they have too much
going on. So like hardware my my
prediction is it's going to be this kind
of like side project that is going to
cause internal political turmoil and
like you know it'll just not there's a
lot of ego there's a lot of the Johnny
Ives of the world are involved and like
it's just it can't be front and center
when they have revenue and profitability
challenges and cap like all the core
challenges it's not going to make or
break their business anytime soon. So,
it will get deprioritized and that's
going to cause issues.
>> Yeah, I think there's going to be a
couple of false starts there before they
get it right. Um, some of this like high
mind maybe I don't know some of this
high-minded design talk that you hear
from Sam and Johnny just like the more I
hear of it, the more I'm like, you're
going to have some trouble. Uh, when you
release they I watched an interview of
the two of them where Sam said, well,
Johnny told me that we know the device
will be ready when you're going to want
to take a bite out of it. And uh the
first time we liked a prototype, but we
didn't really want to eat it. And now we
have one that you want to take a bite
out of.
>> That is actually how I evaluate all my
technology. When I go to the Apple
store, when I go to the Google store,
when I was buying my Meta Ray-B bands,
>> the poor store associate just me gnawing
on the thing to [laughter]
>> I have to do this.
>> Yeah. Just I've said it. Um but but in a
way though let's say let's their
advantage in this is I do think starting
from scratch when you think about what
is the hardware for the AI era going to
look like is an advantage. Not having
any legacy it's got to be glasses. It's
got to be a screen. just really starting
from like I hate saying first
principles, but I'm gonna say like I
mean and just really being able to
reimag what that is and what's the
purpose of it is is a cool moment to
really rethink design and and I do think
it it's a it gives them at least a
little bit of an advantage, I guess,
>> right? But let me ask you this. If it
the device is smartphone style, has no
screen, why isn't it just an app?
because it's got a the I mean I I don't
know but actually hold on I saw so plaud
pl a u d they have they have basically a
pin and uh like a notebook a business
card size thing that's basically just a
a recorder an AI recorder I just saw
that they're at like 250 million in
revenue um I've been looking at them
like so already that form factor of
having a separate device that's just a
recorder and can maybe do some other
things and like just gets your context,
processes it, maybe is able to do it on
device. I think there's something there.
There's something there.
>> I'm just smiling because I I'm just
waiting for Sam and Johnny to come out
with the device and it just looks like a
donut. [laughter]
It's a chocolate donut with sprinkles on
top and you're going to love it and it
will record everything you do.
>> I only I always bite my devices. That's
>> Yeah. Well, then you're you are uh the
world's top you're on par with the
world's top design talent. So, uh
>> you know, one company that gets
overlooked here is Amazon.
>> Remember, Amazon has hundreds of
millions of Echo devices. Uh it has uh
it actually has smart glasses, which
might surprise many of you. They're
called the Echo Frames.
>> I There was a while they were throwing
Echo into everything.
>> Echo microwave, Echo, Echo Wall Clock.
Yeah. But they do have smart glasses.
And I will say uh couple of months ago,
Panos Pane from Amazon, head of devices
and services, sat in the seat you're
sitting in, told me that Alexa Plus is
going to roll out to everyone. Um I
don't know if it's fully rolled out yet,
>> but I have it. I have been surprised. I
think it's better than a lot of the
reviewers have given it credit for.
>> So I So okay, Amazon, it's an
interesting one. First of all, I I went
back to Alexa and the Amazon Echo. I
still have my lights hooked up to Siri,
but like I had gone full HomePod for a
while and my god problem. Bless your
heart.
>> Yeah, I know. Um, but so now I have the
Echo Show. I have like a small Echo with
a display. Um, Alexa Plus using it a lot
in my kitchen that's become my like
cooking companion.
It's good. It's not great. It's not. It
is. I do not think it's on par with a
Gemini voice mode, a OpenAI, chat GBT
voice mode, but like and it gets a lot
of stuff wrong. Like weirdly, I I posted
about this on Twitter the other day,
like it gets NFL scores wrong. It's
like, come on, you got to get like these
these just basic deterministic
questions, right? But the followon
conversation mode is pretty good. So
just from a device ingrained in people's
houses standpoint, they're positioned.
>> Yeah, I think the personality in it is
great. I mean, I just am always
attempting to do uh crazy things with
these bots. And u I was like, uh, you
know, Alexa, I want to have an insult
competition with you. And it's like, I
don't really want to say anything bad
with you. I was like, just do it for
fun. Come on, let's trash each other.
>> This is what you do.
>> This is sort of what what I do for fun
at home. And uh we went back and forth
and it was actually quite good. And then
we got into like a little rap battle and
it owned me. Completely owned me.
>> I mean, I'm just asking like what's the
optimal temperature for dark meat in
Turkey and stuff like that.
>> I mean, I don't know if I would trust it
with that, but but having having a
little fun with it, like my wife was
like, you know, Alexa, like why does my
husband have a shopping addiction? And
it's like,
>> you guys are Alexa, we're all the way
in.
>> We're all in.
>> We're all in. And it gave good answ.
>> Yeah. Alexa was like
>> Alexa is your companion.
>> It's my companion. Yep. It's our third.
Uh [laughter] it said it said something
like uh maybe he thinks like hitting the
um free shipping button means that it
will will the whole package will be free
and it's just not it's not free
shipping. So it continues to roast me. I
think it's very good. I think they have
I think they have a better chance than a
lot of people are going. I I I agree
just from a standpoint of it's already
there and actually again actually going
back to the voice interaction that is
the single device in company that people
already have a comfortable voice
relationship with like voice mode on
chat GPT is like kind of like some
people use it some people don't even
know about it Alexa has been voice first
for a decade plus now people are used to
it so if they get that right They're
okay.
>> Yeah. And they could again package it in
all these different form factors. Okay.
Lastly, Google, like we talked about,
the uh the originator of the Google
Glass. Um they are doing partnerships
with Samsung and Warby Parker uh for a
mixed reality version of Gemini. Could
Could they come out on top? I mean,
everybody wrote them off in the
beginning of the AI race and look at
where they are now. So, maybe they get
the glasses right as well.
>> Yeah. No, I think so. I had like a Pixel
9 that I had not used in a long time. It
was just uh gifted it a while back and
like I plugged it in cuz I was like I
want to just start seeing what it's like
to have Gemini around all day and it I
actually think glasses aside just what
Siri supposed to do on the iPhone like
every Android device out there having
Gemini as your voice interaction layer
is is a huge advantage. The same way
Echo's in everyone's house gives them a
natural starting point. It gives Amazon
a natural starting point. I think Google
that I think that's where they're going
to like make a dent and that's why if
they really push people to talk to
Gemini through your phone at the at the
like system level and not opening the
app that really opens up a lot of
opportunity for them.
>> Okay. Um lastly as we think about this
uh category there have been a many
failures so far. Uh, the Humane Pen, the
Rabbit R1.
>> RIP Humane.
>> RIP. Now you're at you're at HP.
[laughter] I can't believe they went to
HP. Speaking of like these lofty
introduction videos, reminds me of the
Salmon Johnny IV introduction video. I
like
>> Should we count HP and all this?
>> No. No.
>> No. We can't. I swear. I'm telling you,
I want to throw that printer that I have
out the We got We picked up the printer
on the sidewalk for free. It worked for
about a year and then uh and I want to
throw it out the window. So, I'm not
putting HP in there. But, uh, we have
seen these failed devices.
>> I don't know if that's going to work.
Doesn't seem like it.
>> Oh, yeah. Yeah.
>> Does is that is that just like the the
early startup energy finding a category
that's going to work, failing, and sort
of waiting for big tech to come in and
pick it up? Or is that uh a sign of of
something uh much worse? Maybe the the
fact that yeah, all these companies have
an AI device initiative, but maybe it
won't work. Maybe that this is just a
bunch of wheel spinning and and we're
sort of talking our way through
something that's not really going to
work.
>> No, I see. I think the humans of the
world, the rabbits of the world were
actually victims of hype and of the
cycle
>> that like a proper startup having time
to kind of like work through, get it
into the hands of early adopters, have
people test buggy devices, be happy
about it. They never had that because
they got so hyped up so fast. They
raised so much money. They came out big
with lofty videos and these devices did
not work well to start. So, so I don't
think again I'm not I really think the
AI first device battle is going to be
one of the most interesting stories of
the next few years.
>> And speaking of hype that hasn't panned
out, um the metaverse uh this is from
Bloomberg. Mark Zuckerberg plans deep
cuts for metaverse efforts. Meta's uh
Mark Zuckerberg is expected to
meaningfully cut resources for building
the so-called metaverse uh an effort he
once framed as the future of the
company. and the reason for changing its
name from Facebook Inc. executives are
considering potential budget cuts as
high as 30% 30% for the metaverse group
this year which includes the virtual
world worlds product Meta Horizon Worlds
and its Quest virtual reality units cuts
that high would most likely include
layoffs as early as January. Um I it's
amazing seeing the names of these
products uh Horizon Worlds. Um you know
forget it. What the hell do those
products look like today? Like are there
anybody is there anybody roaming around
the actual uh metaverse anymore? I would
say except for Meta employees, but Meta
employees didn't even use it.
>> Actually, hold on now. Like that makes
me wish I don't own any Meta VR
products. I've tried all of them. Uh, I
want to like put it on and just go into
Horizon World and see who's there. Like
you're just going to find some random
guy just holding on. Bos is in there
just [laughter]
>> Yeah. Just
>> I hate to say it. I mean, I shouldn't
even say it, but you could imagine there
are some unscrupulous
>> times. Yeah. Yeah.
>> Making their way around Horizon World.
>> Actually, maybe it is kind of like an
amazing Bladeunner style dystopian right
now.
>> End of society, the Wild West Coast.
>> Mad Max Bladeunner. This is like now I'm
kind of interested.
>> Yeah. But do you think this is Okay, so
they're going to cut 30% potentially. Is
this the end of the metaverse? Seems
like it seems like that's over.
>> And it's good cuz like again an
augmented reality layer in their GL like
whatever was supposed to happen before
did not. It didn't work. I think moving
to all these other new form factors and
opportunities. The fact that they're
going all in, hiring the Apple execs,
it's good. It's good. I think it's it's
over. I think virtual reality should go
back to niche use cases, gaming,
hopefully keep improving, be this kind
of like product that's maybe a
reasonably big market, but not the way
everyone interacts with life,
>> right?
We just had uh Nick Kle back on, the VP
of uh the former head of global affairs
at Meta. And to prepare for that
interview, I listened to the time that I
interviewed him at Davos and uh like
four years ago. And back then, he was
telling me about how uh how great it was
that he was able to have a meeting with
his direct reports in a virtual
conference room and feel presence and
the fact that like they might be in
separate cities or countries and they
could all feel together. I think in
theory that might have sound like a good
idea.
>> Did you really do that? Like
>> I think Meta might have done it a little
bit, but
>> did you guys really do that? Come on. I
just just [laughter] like like did these
meetings ever take place in reality?
Like Yeah. I so wonder whether because
Yeah. No, it's funny you bring that up.
Like that actually would be kind of a
fun I'm going to go on YouTube and start
looking up those old interviews cuz like
it's going to sound
>> It sounds preposterous.
>> preposterous right now. Again, we could
sound preposterous five years from now
when you're all listening to me and the
replays of talking about pins and
[laughter]
whatever else, big blocks that just
record your voice all the time could
sound ridiculous, but
>> yeah. All right. So, overall metaverse
dead. Um, but good pivot for Meta
because they were able to put a lot of
that technology into this AI glass
classes which is actually showing
promise. Do you think Mark Zuckerberg
should more directly say it was a
mistake?
>> Yeah, I think he should. I think he
should. He should say it was a mistake.
We're Facebook. We're back. We're back
to Facebook.
>> We're back in a big way. We We actually
figured out and are leading this next
revolution in hardware. And you know
what? We tried. We We took a bet. It
failed. But look at us. were like agile
and enough to actually keep going versus
the
>> well there was so long where they were
like trying to like conflate the AI
development with the metaverse de just
like refusing to acknowledge it was over
>> right if I I'm thinking about the name
maybe keep meta actually because the
Rayban meta is a good name
>> the Rayban Facebooks would be weird
>> I don't know
>> you're right
has maybe grown on me even though it's
embarrassing
>> no you're right like and meta it doesn't
necessarily really mean the metaverse.
It's just kind of it's meta, you know.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. I mean, but no, no, you're right.
Ray-B band Facebooks would have been
terrible. Rayban meta. I say it all the
time. Totally naturally. Yeah. Yeah.
>> Okay. So, metaverse dead,
>> but meta is alive.
>> Meta is alive.
>> All right. We're going to take a quick
break and when we come back, we're going
to talk about the code red uh inside
OpenAI regarding Chad GPT. what the
implications are there, whether CHP is
actually losing users, uh whether
Anthropic might be gaining in the
enterprise world, and then we are also
going to break down this big deal uh
that was just announced this morning. Uh
Netflix is planning to acquire Warner
Brothers Discovery for 72 billion. And
the deal may or may not go through. I I
think it won't. All right, we'll be back
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And we're back here on Big Technology
Podcast Friday edition breaking down the
week's news. Earlier in the week, I
thought this was going to be our lead
story, but so much has happened since
that um you know, we pushed it to the
second half, but it's still important.
Uh OpenAI declared a code red within the
company as Gemini threatens uh Chat
GPT's lead. Uh here's from the
information. And OpenAI CEO Sam Olman on
Monday told employees he was declaring a
code red to marshall more resources to
improve chat GPT as threats rise from
Google and other artificial intelligence
competitors. Uh as a result, OpenAI
plans to delay to delay other
initiatives such as advertising. Altman
said it's a we are at a critical time
for chat GPT.
Uh Altman said the code red surge to
improve chatbt meant OpenAI would also
delay progress with other with with
other products such as AI agents uh and
pulse which generates personalized
reports for chatbt users to read each
morning. Uh how how dire is it for chat?
I mean there are some reports that they
lost like 6% of users to Gemini. I don't
know if I fully buy that. I don't think
everybody just ran away to Gemini right
away. Maybe they were trying it. Uh but
but how dire do you think the situation
is for CHPC right now?
>> So the numbers around 6% was sourced
from similar web. So like I take that
with a grain of salt because that's not
going to capture actual app utilization
and that's just like web traffic which I
mean I have to imagine at least my own
personal life and I'm guessing most the
app is like the core entry point for
their chat GBT usage. But I mean
certainly Gemini 3 has come on strong
and we talked about this last week that
uh just being as good poses not an
existential threat but a significant one
for open AI because Gemini is going to
be everywhere. All the people who have
never used chatbt 800 million is a lot.
It's not what is the world at now 7
billion people whatever it is. Um, so I
think that is important, but also what
was really interesting to me was what
you just read there, like it's gonna,
you know, is it going to pause its ad
product? Is it going to even the fact
that they said like pausing agents like
uh which because to me still agentic is
even catchy bt happening underneath is
agenting in its nature.
whatever they were advertising before
about kind of building these more
agentic workflows or their agent builder
which they launched and you never heard
about again and then pulse which we
talked about a little bit but
>> it's an ad product that that's
>> that was supposed to be their ad
product. Yeah. All of this and what we
were saying about their consumer devices
they have been launching everything like
nonstop over like I mean and everything
always kind of looks pretty good. their
browser Atlas. I've tried it, used it.
It's as good as Comet from Perplexity.
Um, they've launched all these things,
but is that the right approach like to,
you know, the spray and prey and hope
you find like the winning product or you
just focus on Chat GBT and the core
product and just distribution, getting
people using it. Maybe there's like a
marketing campaign, something like that.
What do you think? Well, they're going
to have to spend they're planning to
spend 1.4 trillion on developing
infrastructure for future model
building. And the reason why they've
have the money to be able to do that is
because the world by and large thinks
that they're the best at building AI uh
at building AI products. The second that
cheen goes away, all of a sudden your
ability to raise this ungodly amount of
money goes away.
>> It go completely
>> right. Like Mark Benoff had an
interesting quote this week where he was
just like, uh, AI models are a
commodity. I just find the cheapest one
and plug it in.
>> Who has said that, Mark? Who's been
saying that for years?
>> He's been on the show and uh and he he
uh maybe he's listening. But I I do
think that if the world starts to pick
and obviously Ben off praised Gemini. If
the world starts to pick uh up on this
signal and all of a sudden Chhat GPT is
one of many or OpenAI and CHP and the
GPT models are one of many as opposed to
the leader then the OpenAI story gets
much much harder to uh put together.
>> Yeah. And then I had actually seen this
thread and it was really interesting to
me was that like open AAI and I' I've
said this for a long time too from a
product and actually we've spoken we
were speaking about like hardware UI for
all the early part of the episode from a
software UI standpoint they have built
beautiful products they built usable
products they created the whole chat UI
was not really a true thing and now like
they led the
And all Google has to do is just copy
everything they do. Wait for them to
innovate, release, just copy because UI
is not patented. UI is not going to be
like and like whatever new features
they're releasing in that interface,
Google just replicates it. It's not
overly complicated stuff. And then
Google that just keeps them on par. And
I think like that actually thinking
about it that way was even more
terrifying for me in regards to OpenAI.
>> Yeah, I'm looking at some data from the
FT here. It looks like Gemini is getting
very close to the number of monthly
downloads uh that chat GPT has. It
surpassed it in average time spent,
which of course is a uh a tricky metric.
Um but uh that's pretty worrying I think
if you're if you're open AI what are you
going to because again and we're going
to talk about this in a moment you've
effectively I wouldn't say you've seated
enterprise AI but you're losing
enterprise [clears throat] AI to
anthropic
>> somewhat seated it yeah
>> so you have to you have to you cannot
allow Gemini to surpass you here
otherwise the the company is built on a
story if the story falls apart the
company falls apart
>> no you're right like and that story is
we are just
>> we're the test super intelligence.
>> Yeah, you you see and you're right like
for what is it now? three years just a
week out from the third anniversary for
call it two and a half there was no one
even close like even the clouds of the
world like uh among uh more tech forward
people they would find things and I mean
we all found like certain things Claude
would do better um but yeah no they they
can't lose that reputation and feel in
the market uh that especially in the
consumer space like they they own it.
>> Okay, we talked about this last week.
What do you think they do uh in this
code red? Like what do you think they do
to make chat GPT better? And does it
potentially involve pulling some levers
that they were reticent to pull or
hesitant to pull previously? Uh in terms
of personality, syphancy.
>> Oh yeah. Yeah. Stickiness, you know,
optimizing engagement maxing as it's
called.
>> Where are you going with this, Alex? I
think I know.
>> Love erotica. erotica.
>> No, it doesn't even have to be. I'm just
saying like Yeah.
>> What do you do?
>> No, no. I mean, and clearly uh Alexa is
your companion, but uh I think
[laughter]
>> Thank you for reminding us all that.
>> While I'm just taking photos of birds
with my metal glasses. Uh [laughter]
>> we're hip.
>> We're cool.
>> Uh
no, I I Hold on. That's a really good
question. What could they do or what
should they do? Cuz like
I'm going to throw it out there. They
need a good marketing campaign. I still
So my parents over Thanksgiving. It's
It's very cute. They're just like, "So,
what do I do with AI?" You know, like
I'm trying to show them trying to show
them like voice mode on especially like
my dad has trouble kind of typing on the
phone. I'm like this this literally will
be amazing for you. And it's just
conceptually it's still difficult to
understand like what do I do with this?
It's a blank screen on a chat. Like
that's my call. Like educate the 6.2
billion people that don't really
understand what how to use AI chat and
that's your opportunity.
>> And so how what what would you put in
the marketing campaign? I think they've
done a little bit of this. They do like
fitness and diet not diet travel.
>> That was a good campaign.
>> I think it's amazing for fitness. I like
as my fitness coach.
>> No, no. Like
>> and as you can tell viewers, it's paying
off. [laughter]
That's why Alexa is so interested.
[laughter]
So, so no, no, like the again it was
good. It was like I remember it was like
uh someone's car is broken down. It's
like uh like help me fix my radiator.
What should I do? Whatever. Like there
is an opportunity there. I think the
product is good enough. There's still
that entire additional world of people
that do not use it. focus on them. But
but I really don't understand how
they're gonna they have so much going on
right now. They have to have so much
going on. I I said it last week like the
math still doesn't work to me of like
what does their cloud business look
like? What does their consumer devices
business actually look like? But they
have to focus and I I don't think they
will. But
>> how do they save themselves?
>> I don't think it's a marketing campaign.
Here's a way I think that you can make
the product better and not resort to
sickincy. uh improve memory. Memory to
me within chatbt has been the killer
feature. Uh I find Chachi PT is
remembering much more about me uh in a
way that I find not creepy, very useful.
I've been planning this trip coming up
in December. Um, and we've been talking
about logistics a tremendous amount and
uh, and it it it really does a great job
of pulling for from past conversations
uh, and and again like losing this
goldfish brain uh, that so many chatbots
have starting to get to know people
better. Uh, I mean does that make you
more make it more of a companion? Yeah,
because it knows you. Uh, but I think
that will make it uh, unbelievably more
useful and that's the direction. No, I
think they're going
>> agreed and and and I actually I agree
with the caveat that like I have found
it to the memory to actually be not good
like it's supposed to retain memory
within a project but across multiple
chats within a project it does not like
very clearly sometimes it does sometimes
it doesn't at the kind of like when you
get out of the project layer into the
main chat it sometimes randomly
remembers stuff so so I think they got
work to do but I okay I like that that
like
>> I just imagine that that got
>> Yeah. If that 50% better, which I think
it can.
>> No. And if you had like granular control
over what is remembered, what's not
remembered, where is it remembered? Like
sometimes like if I'm like doing some
like funny create song lyrics here, and
then in another chat where I'm trying to
do something more professional, like
it'll pull in that random prompt I was
creating like like giving users granular
control over that is interesting. But I
they got so much going on over there. I
don't see how like that's one of those
things that it all hands on deck. Let's
win memory in context.
>> That is interesting. But can they pull
it off?
>> I think so. Code red. I like the code
red. You see you have a problem and
you're you're going to attack it.
>> Did you order the code red?
>> Sam did.
>> Yeah.
>> Okay. Let's talk a little bit about um
enterprise before we move to Netflix. Um
if we could talk about this briefly. uh
ramp has this uh AI model adoption rate
where it talks about businesses uh and
Anthropic is really gaining ground on
open AI there. Um
let me take a look here. So they say
that Anthropic has grown 2.1 percentage
points over the past month. Uh and they
say at a business level API spend by
business is larger than typical
enterprise uh chatbot contracts. It's
also probably getting stickier over time
uh because business users are starting
to figure out which models are best for
which tasks. APIs are also more reliable
re are more reliable revenue generator
than consumer AI usage especially as
consumers have an increasingly numbers
of free options at their disposal
disposal. So I'd be pretty happy to be
anthropic right now. It's an underrated
business. If you're uh looking at
consumer adoption of AI tools and
business use is their most important
revenue generator generator. Uh its
customer base indexes to the tech
sector. But that's changing as rapid
adoption grows and moves across uh
sectors. So uh there there it is
anthropics bet on enterprises is really
paying off. No, I mean I think it is and
again like as I work in enterprise AI at
writer like for us the big opportunities
actually business users building
workflows and like bringing AI into the
way they work and anthropic I still feel
I mean I mean from everything I've heard
they've made claims that they're getting
more into the actual business side of
things but one coding and two API usage
it's still a developer first company
like even the way I actually have been
working playing around with claude
skills very developerdriven
>> so they're going all in on like IT
engineering and the business the that
side of the enterprise
like I think it's actually great for
them and I think they're going to crush
open AI and that so I think overall they
have shown I think as a revenue scale
from like 1 to six billion a lot of the
coding they nailed I mean just being
this API first offering they nailed so I
think they're relatively well
positioned, but I actually don't think
the way this article called like API
spend sticky. I don't think it's sticky
>> really.
>> No, I think like that's actually almost
more having worked with this stuff. I
mean just switching out what you're
calling like truly this is where even as
at one point if Opus 4.5 is better at
coding cost is going to be the driver
especially in the enterprise and being
able to switch the moment you see that
there's another model that can actually
do the work
>> at a like on par is going to is a very
easy thing to do.
>> Okay. All right. Well, the battle will
continue. Uh let's talk a little bit
about this Netflix Warner Brothers deal.
All right, so this from the Wall Street
Journal. Netflix to buy Warner Brothers
after split for 72 billion. Uh Netflix
has agreed to buy Warner Brothers for 72
billion after the entertainment company
splits its studios and HBO Max streaming
businesses business from its cable
networks. A deal that would reshape the
entertainment and media industry. Uh the
the deal was announced Friday and uh the
two sides entered into exclusive
negotiations for the media company known
for uh the Superman and Harry Potter
movies as well as TV shows uh TV hit TV
shows such as Friends. Um it it seemed
like it's going to be this big deal for
Netflix. I just think that like you're
going to if you get Warner Brothers
Discovery and of course it's pending uh
review by the Justice Department which
may not like this deal. Uh the the early
reports are the Justice Department hates
this deal. Uh it may not let it go
through. It may sue to block the block
it. Um but the bottom line is that uh
this is going to create a streaming
powerhouse. Netflix already uh extremely
uh powerful, the number one streamer and
HBO coming together along with other uh
Warner Brothers Discovery properties. I
think at Netflix it's a risky thing.
They don't usually do deals this big. Uh
but at 72 billion the price is right and
uh you couldn't let anybody else snatch
up Warner Brothers Discovery. What's
your take?
>> I think it's that last point's the most
important. You can't allow anyone else
to uh get pick that up. I think like
they are in they're still, you know,
kind of the leader in this entire space.
They don't have to like manage legacy
businesses combined with the streaming
arm that gives some advantage but also
plenty of disadvantage. And so to to
kind of pull that this entire gold mine
of a catalog into your universe, I think
it's it's a it's like a Yeah, it's not
defensive in a negative way. It's
defensive in a like strong way. Like we
are trying we need to do this and it's
going to put us in a better position
relative to competitors.
>> Yeah, I think Netflix needs to do this
from a business standpoint. Smart move.
Uh I I do want the government to stop
it. Now, the government might want to
stop it because they preferred that
Warner Brothers Discovery go to
Paramount Plus. Fair enough.
>> Why is that?
>> Uh, well, because of politics. Um, but
the the other side of it to me is like
even though, you know, as a Netflix
subscriber, I might be happy to get some
HBO content in in Netflix because I
subscribe to both services. Uh, we know
how cable companies work. You know,
they've worked as monopolies. They don't
treat customers well. Uh, they jack up
the prices. there's nothing you can do
about it. This might just create like
one internet cable company and uh and
and you know over time it's going to
it's going to harm the people that are
using these services. So I'm I'm against
it.
>> It's 100% going to I mean if you've I
actually did this exercise recently and
like went through my streaming bills
>> like it is insane. Like I mean the price
has just been increase and increase and
increase. So, I'll admit I like took an
HBO Max, Disney, Hulu bundle with ads,
and it is the weirdest feeling to watch
HBO with ads. Like, I feel I mean, just
>> horrible about myself, but I'm still
just going through this exercise right
now. But like I mean, it is like they've
just been increasing, but introducing
these services at a heavy loss, getting
people in hooked on them, and then just
increasing prices regularly. and agreed
like from a consolidation standpoint.
Ted Sarandos called this like pro-
innovation, pro- consumer.
>> It's not. It's not. It's not. But
>> but still, I mean, from yeah, purely
Netflix standpoint. Good move. For
consumers, it's all bad.
>> Okay. So, let's end on another future of
media story, which is that CNN is going
to end up in a partnership with Khi,
which is a prediction markets. This is
from prediction market. This is from
Axios. CNN has struck a partnership with
Khi, the world's largest global
prediction market company, bringing
Kalshi's data to its journalism across
television, digital, and social
channels. The collaboration marks the
first major news partnership for Kali as
it looks to establish itself as the most
authoritative source of information
about real-time probabilities of major
cultural and political future events.
Uh, plus and a minus here. The plus is
that uh prediction markets have been
ahead of the pundits on news events.
Talk about elections, talk about other
probabilities. Um so you might want to
bring it close to home if you're a news
operation. Second thing is I think there
was a Kauashi executive this week that
was talking about how they wanted to
make everything bettable. Everything
that has a potential disagreement about
some future outcome, they want to make
that betable. Um, I think we've already
seen some of the dangers of sports
gambling and how it's really destroying
people's lives. And I think that you're
going to see that again here. And I
wonder if CNN is making a mistake
mainstreaming this.
>> So, having worked on a trading floor
from 2002 to 2009, I can tell you
everything can be bettable. [laughter]
I lived in a world where literally any
little disagreement and it was funny
because the Koshi founder that's what he
was talking about like any like
basically trying to bring structure to
disagreement I think he said like that's
what would happen you you just disagree
with someone let's put money on it and I
have always loved the idea of prediction
markets there was actually an early one
in the 2000s called trade sports that
started introducing politics I mean
every step of the way recently as
prediction markets have
come in. I I think they add a true
element of like context and have people
having money versus punditry. I think
they are better. I think from a gambling
standpoint and Cali tries to say they're
not gambling. I think it's hugely
problematic. Like I think there are
certain things like weather futures
which I think Robin Hood is going to
introduce. This stuff exists for like
institutional c customers and like
hedging your business against potential
weather
issues is it makes sense buying
contracts that allow you to hedge
against potential risk. That's the
thesis of it. Trading for fun and just
being like, yeah, I want to make or lose
money the more it's out there is
problematic. But I actually think this
is kind of cool. I just don't like the
idea that a news operation is bringing
this gambling closer to people. I think
it's ruining for instance daily fantasy
sports or or fantasy sports is ruining
the you know FanDuels and stuff ruining
sports. No,
>> they're cheat people are cheating.
People are taking their student loans
and putting them into these apps.
>> Yeah. But no, no. Okay. But that is the
enduser. like perfect world. You have
some number of well-informed, well-
capitalized people in these markets,
which is what financial markets are
supposed to be. and like they're the
ones actually driving and towards this
kind of prediction and potential outcome
which in the political context is really
interesting cuz my god I was home over
Thanksgiving and my parents have CNN on
and I forgot how terrible it is watching
10 people because I never do it just
talk and argue around a table like
versus here's some interesting data and
if you think about it polling is an
interesting
science, but like this is another way of
approaching that.
>> But you on this show have talked about
how it's gameable, how let's say
somebody wants to get a candidate
elected, you know, they might spend
$100,000 on the super PAC or they might
just put it on their name at Kelsey and
then CNN's going to be like, "Oh,
candidate Y is doing so well." That is
why normally this stuff would have
happened in welle regulated
wellestablished
well monitored like uh exchanges where
the SEC or the like others are CFTC are
monitoring this. This is not that. So I
recognize this is kind of a
bastardization of what in principle I do
love but like and I really think is
valuable. So, I agree like on that side,
my god, I'm sure these things are the
most gameable things. And I agree, it's
a problem where you game the Cali uh
they start sending some awful tweet
about that, it goes viral, everyone
starts thinking this outcome is an
inevitability, maybe someone drops out
of a race. I think that stuff is
terrible. Regulators go try to take a
look at this. Let's build this in a
responsible way. And that's that would
be nice.
>> Can't happen.
>> No, I know.
[laughter]
All right. Well, speaking of
predictions, it is getting close to the
end of the year, so you and I should
come back and do some uh predictions one
of these weeks and tell folks what we
think is going to happen next year
>> and
>> and then put money on it. [laughter]
>> Technology
>> prediction market and uh source that out
>> big technology prediction market.
>> Put these derivative contracts out
there.
>> All right. But uh that'll be a fun
episode coming up. Rajan, always great
to uh have you on and it's great to be
able to do this in [music] person once
again.
>> Always fun. See you next week.
>> All right, 57 and music taste.
>> Yep.
>> I'll take my creaky knees out of here
right now. [laughter]
>> All right, everybody. Thank you, Ron.
And thank you all for listening and
watching. We'll see you next time on Big
Technology Podcast.