Inside the Tech Powering Your Streaming Obsession — With Conviva CEO Keith Zubchevich
Channel: Alex Kantrowitz
Published at: 2024-05-20
YouTube video id: 6bkf6eCaWuk
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bkf6eCaWuk
Let's look behind the scenes of how the internet offers streaming that's as good as TV and websites that handle massive surges in traffic with ease, creating incredible consumer experiences in a fascinating deep dive into the strength of the web sponsored by Conviva here live exclusively on YouTube. And we're joined today by a special guest, the president CEO and the fifth Beatle founder of Conviva, Keith Keith Zubchevich. Keith, welcome to the show. Great, thanks Alex. It's great to be here. Thanks for having me. A great to have you here and often times on the internet we talk about these big moments, right? Things like streaming a playoff game on Peacock and everybody's like talking a little bit about the business implications, what does it mean for cable? And they gloss right over the fact that the fact that we are able to even watch this on streaming is kind of like a small miracle. And so that's why I'm so excited to be able to speak with you today is because we're going to talk about exactly what goes in to delivering these experiences. So for anyone who's ever watched something streaming live on the internet, you're probably coming across the technology that we're going to talk about and this is just a fanta- fantastic and fascinating case and explanation of how this stuff works and how you're able to have these experiences. So why don't you take us into that playoff NFL playoff game on Peacock and talk about how this was able to stream in a way that, you know, mirrors the quality of TV because without that this stuff would not be happening. Yeah, I know it's a it was actually a really big event. Not not just a big event by size, but a big sort of milestone event because you know, it really was a signal that the the streaming marketplace is the new TV medium. You know, we Conviva started 16 years ago, 17 years ago measuring video on the internet and not even I mean, we were just really measuring video in web pages. That was it. And to think now, 16 years later that a broadcast company as big as NBC would only stream a an NFL playoff game. I mean, you think about NBC and the NFL. People think Super Bowl, they think big big time television shows, right? Big time television sporting events. The fact that they put it on Peacock only was a massive massive event in again, by size and complexity, but also the statement around how streaming is here to stay and is actually supplanting television as the preferred medium to watch content. I mean, obviously television's going to be around a long time and television has a place and people will always watch what I would call television, but I think the value of streaming and and the number of viewers and consumers that have now made the switch to streaming was validated as a new strategic medium by both NBC and NFL. It was a lot of fun. Uh but I don't think people fully understand how hard that is. Right, exactly. People just think it's the same Yeah, you moved it from traditional television coax cable to my home to my internet. What how how's that any different? Because people think it's just the television broadcast pushed out over the internet as if it's that simple and it's not. Um the way to think about the difference between television and streaming is television is a single broadcast to everyone, meaning there's no personalization. You have to watch it on your TV at a very specific point in time and that's it. Streaming, you're watching it on any device you want to watch it on and you're watching it anywhere. Like I could go out in my backyard and watch it on Wi-Fi, right? Just that fact alone requires the broadcaster to deliver the game in an entirely new way. It's a massively complex, you know, everyone's session by the way, think of it this way. Everyone's session watching that NFL game is a unique session. So NBC has to build out 20 million unique viewing sessions as opposed to broadcasting a single signal that everyone on the other side has to watch at the same time and in the same way. So the complexity of streaming an NFL game and NFL did a phenomenal job job with it is massively complex and I don't think people will ever fully appreciate how hard it is to stream anything, but to do a large live event like an NFL playoff game was just was incredible and they did it they did it well and it went off without a hitch and we were really proud to be a part of it. So you're talking about millions of different streams and I'm sure every stream is different device that they're catching this on, different bandwidth constraints or not. So how did they how do you then work with a company like or an organization like the NFL to make sure that that goes off smoothly? Yeah, well the number one thing about flipping from television to streaming is everyone's stream is unique, right? Even your bit rate, the the rate at which consuming the bits to watch that game are very from everyone else's. So the so everyone is a unique viewer in the streaming version of an NFL game versus one of many in a television broadcast. In that, it's also the ability for NFL and NBC to see the quality that everybody's getting in real time by the way, right? Cuz it cuz any anything on the internet we've we're all consumers, right? We're all watchers of games, we're all consumers of of retail apps. Everything we do as a society now is on the internet. So when when you say buffering everybody knows what buffering is. Yeah. Everybody knows what pixelation is, right? So all these early terms are now part of our our vocabulary as consumers and so as as NFL and NBC push that game over streaming the key is high quality because if everyone's stream through the through the internet is unique and the internet is, you know, not built for for that type of business, the quality of the consumer's experience can vary as well. Just like it's everyone's unique viewer everyone's experience can be unique. So NBC deploys Conviva so that in real time they're able to see everyone's session, right? Cuz in the old days of television, I just have to see my satellite link singular. I have to see my broadcast output, you know, singular. I'm just managing a few links. Now now NBC is managing and monitoring 20 million links and they have to see all 20 million at the same time and they have to see it in real time because if you and I have a problem, they need to know that because now the game is not watchable. So Conviva provides that ability to monitor all of those sessions from from NBC's source all the way out to the device to make sure that as the as the the game is going off, they're able to to measure, monitor and and control what everyone's experience is so that they can make sure that as they move from television, which is a massively high quality medium, to streaming, they have to hold the TV quality experience and that's what Conviva helps them deliver in real time is seeing their consumer experience in real time and making adjustments as it's happening so that they're able to get through and solve anything hitting a viewer of that game. So take us through the process a bit because I'm I'm pretty fascinated by this. Like the fact that they're able to monitor all this stuff and then be able to adjust on the fly and help continue to deliver this amazing experience. I mean, I've I've been watching you know, sports on live streaming. I was just watching on Max watching the NHL and NBA playoffs on two devices in the same house at the same time, crystal clear quality. It's it's pretty amazing. Like if you told me that that was cable, I would believe you, but it's coming over the internet and the the quality is is unbelievable. And it requires I imagine some triaging, right? Where like something goes wrong cuz stuff always goes wrong on the internet, they're able to identify it and respond. So if you could take us through the process a little bit just to give us a sense as to what a network will do in order to be able to keep that connection crystal clear, it would be really interesting. Like what happens when there's a problem? What happens next? Yeah, so so first of all, I'll contrast it with television. Televisions are are dumb receiving devices, right? They just receive signal and then decode it onto the screen. That's it. There's no there's no back channel, there's no conversation back of did I get it? Did it work? Television just assume that it's going to work. In streaming, everyone's device that you watch a streaming on any any IP delivered device has the ability to send data back. So the good thing is is now the communication becomes bidirectional, which is critical because anyone who's pushing any business or any business over the internet, whether it's a video product like NBC with the NFL game or even your apps, right? Everyone has the same challenges when they go to buy shoes on an app as you'll hit delays and you'll hit buffering. The good news is all those devices are throwing data back to the source of the people that are trying to serve that digital product. So Conviva essentially captures all of that sessionized data leaving the device, basically telling NBC during the game what the consumer's experience is as they're watching So NBC's looking at the 20 million devices again, aggregated from Conviva. We collect all the session data from the client side and we ship it back to NBC in a in a knock dashboard. You talk about operations, network operations. So they're able to look at their their entire audience and the experience everyone's having and be able to drill down if like there's an iOS problem or if there's a problem in a specific geo like, you know, New York. They can actually identify as the entire audience is watching where the pockets of problems are and be able to drill down and say, okay, what's the problem? Is it something I can fix at the source level? Is it something that when they call in, I have to tell the consumer, hey, you know, get to a better signal, right? Because the ability to understand and know what is happening with your consumer's experience means you can react to it in real time as well. Whether you fix it or you just know and you can tell the consumer what to do when they're frustrated and they can't watch the game. The worst outcome, whether you're NBC or you're Nike or you're United, the worst outcome is that you have a consumer that's having a problem interfacing with your product and you don't know why. First of all, you don't know and then when they call, you're like, uh reboot. Right? The old In the end That works more often than you think. So NBC by deploying Conviva can see the the the session data coming out of the client side and what's happening in that video consumption experience and then be able to react in real time at scale, which is a it's again very hard thing to do pulling off a large streaming event. Conviva's technology has solved a very hard problem, which is is to provide operations teams with a census level view of their consumer's experience in real time. Yeah, I feel like the turn it on and turn it off and turn it back on is like the go-to advice from IT. And it does work sometimes, but when you're delivering like, let's say the Olympics or the NFL playoff game streaming, it's just not going to cut it. And so then when let's say they have a problem they can fix, is that just, you know, does it mean that they just deliver it at somewhat of a lower quality so that's able to stream? Or like, where do where do you end up making the adjustments to be able to deliver the game, you know, despite the external problems that you might have? Well, let me put it this way because it's really important to have a system like Conviva because any digital business, when you're pushing something over the internet, all the complex pieces of that chain, Right. there's 220 trillion different combinations of things that affect you as a consumer when you do anything on the internet. Everything from the device side, software code level, something that's going on with your battery, all the way through to connections through the internet, all the way to source, right? Whether it's something that's happening at the encoder level. Between the origination and you consuming anything on the internet, there's 220 trillion different combinations of things that can affect your quality. So, that's the that's the scale of problem that internet businesses are tackling when they deliver. So, the good thing is that we, you know, any one of those 220 trillion NBC can diagnose because they see through Conviva what the what the problem is. And again, it can be they fix an encoder, they can go in and expand capacity, they can call a CDN and just say, "I need more capacity in New York", for example. Or if it's all the way at the device side, they can roll back apps, right? So, if it's an app problem, they can roll that back so that they're clearing a bug at at the software level. Or if it is something that's you and me just 17 different devices running at the same time and we're on a low bandwidth signal, "Hey, how about you turn off some some of the things sucking up the bandwidth? That'll that'll help clear your problem." So, depending on what the problem is, as Conviva has a motto, "Be the first to know, be the first to know why, and leave no consumer behind." That's what NBC deploys when they look at their their their broadcast. Their their internet uh streaming broadcast. Yeah, it's pretty cool. And this is something that's been running and Conviva's been running for 16 years. 16 years. And it sort of reminds me of like, you know, an overnight success made over that you know, a decade plus. And it did we are in this moment where we're starting to see like companies like Nvidia, for instance, working on a solution then the internet catches up with it and all of a sudden it's like the one of the most important companies in the world. And I wonder if you can talk a little bit about the journey of why uh this was a problem that you picked or your company picked 16 years ago. Before we had even the idea of streaming a playoff game 16 years ago wasn't even like a conception yet because it was like something that our brains couldn't think of the way that the internet was working. Uh but now we can do it. So, if you could talk a little bit about that evolution, it would be great to hear how this business cuz anybody who's paying attention, anyone who's watching this channel is thinking about how do businesses uh get to the right place in the right time? And this is like a a decade plus of of skating to where the puck is going. So, I'd love to hear your perspective on it. You know, it's interesting because when we started the company 16 years ago, and I call myself the fifth fifth Beatle founder because, you know, there were four um guys way smarter than me coming out of Berkeley and Carnegie Mellon that are the original founders coming out of academia that had a concept. And I'll give you the concept cuz that'll probably shed light onto where we are 16 years later. The concept was that anyone who puts a business on the internet can now measure it. So, the the whole value of Conviva was not really just around video. It was just the concept that as businesses could put their business on the internet that it becomes a bidirectional communication link and you can measure the performance of your business in an entirely new way. When So, when we started the company and then the first thing we chose was video. And as you people probably listening would say, "16 years ago, was there even video on the internet?" And and there really wasn't a lot of it. And so, we we really we we picked video not for the sake of the size of the business on the internet because there frankly, outside of web pages, there wasn't a lot of business on the internet way back then. It was really just email and web pages. And we chose video because if you talk about measuring the quality of a consumer's experience on the internet, what better than video? Cuz you could see it with your eyeballs, right? There was no subjective measure of whether a packet was delivered on time and I need some internet performance monitor to show you the the impact. We could literally just show video was either high quality and you could see it or it was buffered and low quality resolution. So, it was a very easy thing for us to show that we could measure in real time and give people the ability to make adjustments. So, we started with that as a as a as a selection. And then video started coming to the internet. So, we we looked very I mean, there was a there was a founding thesis that video would ultimately come to the internet and that internet was not built for video and that we would be there to help, you know, sort of measure the the quality of video through the internet because it's very different than email and and sort of packet delivery. But that's a separate session. So, we picked video for that reason and and video started to grow and we built this massively high-powered platform measuring just video quality. Then, you know, sort of television started announcing, broadcasters started announcing that, "Hey, we're going to start moving our content to the internet." Netflix became one of the largest broadcasters in the world and winning Oscars and Emmys and all of a sudden now the internet is the new TV medium. That's why I said even the NFL game was really a validation of television is now moving to the internet. And we were there to measure it the whole time. Now, we looked up after 16 years of measuring premium quality video and have 7 billion sensors in the world today collecting quality for a for myriad of premium broadcasters in real time right now. Um so, we we we picked our head up and said, "Hey, interesting dynamic has happened since we started measuring just video." And that is all companies have a internet product now. And I define an internet consumer product as an application, for example, right? So, when we started measuring video for streamers, there was no Nike app. Matter of fact, the app economy didn't even exist. So, companies were still brick and mortar. Companies were still just web.com, come to the web website and order from there. But now we've moved to a true digital economy, which means almost every company in the world today has a digital consumer interface that is a primary source of business, right? Same thing with television and streaming. Television used to be the primary consumer interface, now streaming apps are the primary consumer interface. So, so television's uh uh digital product is a streaming app. But now all companies have a streaming app. They all companies have their version of a digital consumer interface and and Conviva's premise is still the the same that if you're going to put a business on the internet, you can now measure it in real time. The thing that that Conviva is very unique doing is we show, for example, Disney, we show them their entire audience. NBC, we show their entire audience. Nike can now see their entire consumer buying audience in real time so that when they go announce a sale or they announce something new, it's nothing more than the NFL exclusive game. You have a mad rush of people that come to your your digital product and you need to make sure that they have a great experience. Whether you want them to watch the whole game or you want them to buy a pair of shoes, the the the time to value is absolutely critical for all digital businesses, which means you have to have an economic differentiator around speed. I have to know what my consumer's experience is and I have to be able to adjust to it in real time at internet scale, right? So, that's again the the premise that we started the company is the very same one today. It's just that we now see a a new digital economy in which every digital product on the internet has the exact same problem. And that is you're affected by the delivery of anything over the internet, you need to be able to measure it and you need to be able to respond at scale in real time. We did it in video, but now we we're excited because we can do it for any digital business today because here's the thing as consumers, and I'll throw this sort of wet blanket out there. Most of the time when you have a bad experience on an application or a digital product, most of the time they don't even know. They don't even know. And that's why when you call their call center, they say reboot. Right. Reboot. You know, recycle, turn this on, turn this off. It's not that that's the way to do it. They just don't know. They don't see it. And when you call a Conviva publisher, they'll look and say, "Oh, this is your problem." That's the difference. That's the difference between having a real-time connection of as an operations team to your digital business, that real-time connection is really hard. And we've solved that challenge and we're excited about pushing this out to all digital businesses. Yeah, it's so interesting because and with digital businesses, you know, they put something on sale and next thing you know, the internet goes there in mass and crashes the server and the big opportunity is gone. And it's pretty fascinating that the same technology that's being used to make sure that let's say streaming a football game or watching the Olympics or something else being streamed to you online is also now being used for publishers to make sure that they can handle that traffic in that surge similar to like a big streaming event and make sure it goes smoothly. And you chose an interesting word because most people think crash, right? Cuz crash Oh, it crashed. But if you think about like the AT&T outage, right? That one that just happened a couple months ago. Outages actually make the press. Why? Because there's not many of them anymore, right? The internet is actually built, even though it's an inefficient medium and there's a lot of complexities and a lot of shared links. If people, you know, really understood what the internet was comprised of, it would be no surprise that any business on the internet is hit with challenges. But the fact is there's actually not a lot of outages that cause the issues that you and I have as consumers. Right. They're not, you know, black box outages. The the issues that most digital business have on the internet are congestion issues, transient issues, little flare-ups, little death of a thousand cuts that cause delays or that cause something not to come back correctly or that cause something to freeze. Those are the things that are not outage based and that most companies have absolutely no visibility on. So, when NBC runs Conviva, it's not as if they're trying to catch outages. They've built a massively scalable, high available, you know, capable you know, a network. They're actually looking for congestion issues. They're looking for the little things that outages don't cause that are actually seven times more impactful to a consumer experience. Outages happen once for every one issue caused by an outage, there's seven times the the incidents, what I call them, because they're not outages, congestion issues. Slowness, sluggish, you know, buffering, things that just cause that something not to work properly. So, that's that's the thing that I think people need to understand is that your experience issues are not because something broke. It's just because something wasn't sized properly. And well, how do they know what what to do? They don't. They don't see it. It's like when you're at a cart or you're you're trying to shop and the thing is just moving so slowly, that's the moment where you're like, "I'm out of here. I'll get it later." And then rarely do you actually go back and get it. So, It happens to me all the time. I go to shop with my cart, I go to pay, and there's nothing in there. Well, it's not an outage. Like, there's no outage there. That's just That's just something went wrong in the workflow. Right. But here's the difference. If If If you're not deploying a a massively scalable con- client-side telemetry solution like you even you don't know. And you're losing consumers all the time. Keith, can I ask you is is this technology available to digital publishers? And And do they know about it? Because so often I'll try to read news on like a local news site, and that stuff takes forever to load. And then it break The links all break. Um is this something that you can use to help the news industry? Cuz by God, they need it. We can help anybody. So, the good news about this is if consumers are listening to this, like, post Conviva. Buy Conviva. Because again, I'm a consumer. And you'd be surprised how many times I actually send a note and say, "Hey, here's the link to to what we do. Let's have a conversation." Cuz I'm not just complaining as a consumer. I know what you're up against. And I know that there's no tools out there that help you do this. So, the the fact is that there's Conviva out there now that can service any business. So, we've invested in our technology so that we don't just do video. We do all digital surface areas. So, whether it's an application, a website, or any other digital device, we can help instrument that and give any business the ability to see in real time what's happening. So, as consumers, you know, if I could have a rise of consumers say, "Hey, you need Conviva because I'm sick and tired of not being able to get what I need from your your site." I'd love that. Or just digital businesses understanding the technology is available now. You know, we we we like to say, you know, Conviva's proud of the fact that streaming became television because they were able to create a television experience. If streaming came to the internet and the and the experience was terrible, people would still be watching NFL on television. Why? Because I don't need to watch it in streaming. I had a great experience on television. And if it if I go to the internet and it's worse, why do it? And digital businesses have to answer that same question. If you're going to do something in a digital way, don't make it a bad, challenging experience and then tell people, "Oh, it's digital. It's just It's the nature of the business." It doesn't have to be that way. Right? Companies can solve this challenge, and Conviva can help them. So, yes, this is available to any digital business that wants to make sure that they see their consumers' experience as it's happening and can react because they know why. And they can make adjustments. And through this whole conversation, I'm hearing like millions of data points. I'm hearing the overwhelming amount of data trying to pinpoint exactly what's going wrong and share that with the client. And I've been wondering like, can AI help you know, help with the delivery of this service? Help your service become more effective? And then also, tell me a little bit about like how you view explainable AI because there can be AI that helps you know, with the processes and and gets in there. But oftentimes we don't really know what it's doing. So, how do you understand exactly what's happening there? Yeah, no, that's a great That's a great question cuz AI is a really big buzzword right now. People people think By the way, let me let me go all the way back to your original your original question, which was that this is a lot of big numbers. Right. Right? Cuz because you you think about the number of devices in the world today. There's literally billions. Like I said, just measuring video, Conviva has 7 billion sensors in the world today. And they're throwing off session data, which is the equivalent, and I'll put it in people in terms people can understand, it's like the Fitbit of your device, right? So, you think about if you're a Fitbit, you know, you understand what Fitbit is or the ring, whatever you use, that thing is constantly measuring your body. That's what I would label as operational session data. It's very valuable. It's very different than your age, for example, right? So, if you think about demographic data, it's numbers that don't change, and they're just singular numbers. Your age, your income, where you live, male, right? Those are all single-digit numbers. Operations data is the data generated from your body on a continuous basis. That's what systems throw off, right? So, anytime you're measuring systems, which in a digital world, systems serve the digital product, that's a lot of data. You think about the number of devices people are consuming things on digital in the digital world, you're talking tens of billions, hundreds of billions of devices in the world throwing off session data. It's a massive amount of data. So, let me just start there. It is massive. And so, companies that are trying to help or solve the challenge with understanding connecting my operations team to my internet scale session data coming from clients, they go, "Well, that's too much data for me to try and make sense of. Let me use AI. Let me just put AI over this massive repository of data to see if I can make sense of it." That's a challenge because we call that black box AI, which means it's a bunch of data you put in and AI puts out a number. How do you know? How do you know that that's what's happening in your audience? Explainable AI gives you something, but then also gives you the ability to drill down to to fix it and see it. Show your work, for lack of a better word. So, Conviva leverages AI as well. Over the top of, you can imagine, 4 trill- We collect 4 trillion events a day. Every day, 4 trillion events come into Conviva. That's a lot of data. Right? We use AI as well, but we use AI over the top of anomaly detection. So, when when that much data is coming in, because we're computing in real time all of that data, a human can't see 20 million sessions, right? NBC can't see 20 million streams and then see when something goes wrong in one. AI is scanning those 20 million. And it gives you an alert. So, AI would have a an NBC would have an alert fire, "Hey, this changed by 5%. You should look at it." But the difference is now you can click down to see, "Ah, it gave me the problem, but I'm able to go down and see, okay, there's the the root cause of that problem." That's explainable AI. I was able to see what AI told me, and then I drilled down and and saw it and was able to fix it. I I I was able to explain what AI gave me. Black box AI just says, "Hey, this is the problem." As if, okay, I'm going to take your word for it. Right? That's where AI AI is massively powerful. But uh left unto itself and and being the solution, there's terms like hallucinations, right? AI has hallucinations, right? It It reads data that's wrong. It doesn't quite understand the context, right? There's no sys- systematic approach to the data. So, it's trying to just crunch a bunch of stuff and come out with a singular answer. So, there's a lot of reasons and a lot of ways AI is not the answer, right? It's going to be the wrong answer. Um and Conviva has solved a lot of that by the fact that we we when we collect the data, we standardize it in a very similar way. We we we compute over the top in in real time. And then we use AI to help with that much data, not be the source of an answer. Yeah, that's so crucial. Definitely. I mean, everybody talks about, okay, AI, throw AI in and then the problem is solved. But unless you know exactly what that AI is doing, you're in trouble. And this idea of having it explain what it's seeing is is so important. So, um obviously it's like good that you guys are ahead of the curve on that. All right, let me end with this one. Um You guys saw into the future in 16 years ago knowing that video would become uh you know, crucial area to to view on the internet, view content on the internet, and not just text. Uh where what Where are we going to be in 16 years from now? Is like my entire cable bundle going to be streaming over the internet? Or I mean, obviously that's like a business model question as well as a technology question. But as someone so close to it, I'm curious what you what you think in terms of where we're going. Yeah, well, one, I think um for sure, we're going to be getting more and more streamed content to to us as people. And I say to us because it'll be through a myriad of devices now, right? You're You're talking about today it's any device that supports video. You know, tomorrow could be your refrigerator. Tomorrow it could be virtual screens. Tomorrow could be, you know, a VR, right? You could create entire VR rooms in your house, for example. So, the futuristic perspective is that more and more both content as well as everything we do as consumers will be internet delivered, right? So, that's why businesses being out in front of this wave, solving the challenge of consumer experience now is like a wild west land grab for the business of tomorrow, right? So, the more that you can build a great quality of experience for consumers that know when I come to your business, I I get there, I get what I need, it's accurate, I know it works, and I and I'm done in a very efficient way. Cuz technology should be about increasing efficiency. It should help my life be simpler, not more complex. So, as businesses lean into that and create consumer experiences that are more efficient and simple, and they're able to respond, then you can start serving more, right? You Then then all of a sudden, you're not just serving video, or you're not just selling shoes. You You become a marketplace, right? So, again, the the the what we're doing now is proving the concept of a digital economy in a digital world and an internet served, you know, a society. From there, it will only become exponentially larger. It will become exponentially, you know, more complex. And And by the way, the winners will use quality of experience and the ability to connect to your consumer, not your systems, right? I I don't need to be managing servers. I need to know what your experience as a consumer is. I need to start there. Cuz I'm just managing servers, I'm missing what you're experiencing. The winners in the new world, 10 years from now, will be the ones that are acutely attuned to exactly what my consumers are experiencing and I'm responding and I'm reacting and I'm servicing them in real time. Speed as an economic differentiator the future of any digital business as Work & Viva says, we can help you solve that by bringing you together bringing your operations team together in real time with your consumer and helping you react in real time so that you can prepare for that new world where you know, it's going to be massive growth and new opportunities for all of us. Fascinating stuff. Well, Keith so great to have you on the show. Thank you so much for joining and we'll definitely be following the journey from here. Absolutely. I look forward to it. Thanks for having me. Thanks for being here. All right, everybody. Thank you so much for watching. We'll be back on the feed with some more content fairly soon. We'll see you then.