Emergency Podcast: Sam Altman Fired At OpenAI

Channel: Alex Kantrowitz

Published at: 2023-11-18

YouTube video id: -oTIGvAtUGA

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oTIGvAtUGA

Sam Alman is out at open aai it felt
like a hallucination and it still does
but he confirmed the news he's gone
we're going to record an emergency
podcast to break down the news and
explain what it means and we're going to
do it right after this welcome to Big
technology podcast emergency Edition Sam
Alman has been fired by open AI Edition
holy moly I have been looking at my
Twitter feed since this thing broke just
a few hours ago immediately after I
published Friday edition of the podcast
and said there's no way no way we're
waiting until Wednesday to cover the
news on the podcast so instead we're
dropping an emergency episode here where
we're going to talk about what happened
what it means where open AI goes from
here and who did it because the board
has been involved in the literally the
most shocking firing in Tech I would
have to say in a decade or longer and we
we don't know exactly why we did it but
we can talk a little bit about who did
it and that might give us some Clues
we're joined today by the senior AI
Rider Adventure beat Sharon Goldman
Sharon welcome to the show Alex nice to
see you Friday afternoon I know serious
drop literally absolutely budding into
evening but we couldn't let it uh uh any
longer you have been um covering openai
very closely you just wrote about their
board which we're going to get into but
first can you just like tell us a little
bit about the news so Sam Alman is out
as open AI CEO uh the the COO is
stepping in mea is stepping in as the
new interim CEO they are looking for a
new permanent CEO Greg Brockman the who
was the chairman of the board and was
the chairman of the board president of
open AI Ste down as chairman from the
board was going to remain at openai um
try to contextualize this for us this is
a massive shuffling U but how big is it
it's huge Dev day open ai's Dev day was
just last week just earlier this week
there was news that open AI was looking
for a big infusion of money from
Microsoft um Microsoft CEO SAA Adela was
on stage uh with Sam Alman last week at
Dev day touting you know their
partnership to build AGI together just
yesterday I understand um Sam mman was
on stage um for the APAC conference so
uh it sounded like it came as a surprise
to everybody not just us right
absolutely we we don't know what
happened yet we'll probably break at
some point this weekend um but we can we
can speculate a little bit without being
irresponsible the business seemed like
it was in good shape um you know maybe
there was like something that was going
on but this was clearly a conduct
related issue now let me see if I can
pull the exact language from the board
but basically they said that Sam had
been inconsistent with his communication
and they could no longer rely on or or
trust him to do the job effectively some
mey mouth PR language what's your read
on what actually happened I feel like
that it it is mey mouth but it's also
not you know we wish Sam well and as he
goes home to be with his family either
so you know it definitely it dropped in
the afternoon there was some there is
some verbiage that indicates some kind
of misconduct whether that's Financial
or otherwise I don't think anyone knows
I read that there's some kind of all
hands meeting going on right now at open
AI um maybe that will offer some Clues
but um it sounds like everyone no one
really has a a a sure handle on what
happened whether it was Financial I'm
wondering if it has something to do with
Microsoft in some way um then um uh uh
our editorial director at Venture beat
Michael Nunes was at Dev day he said
there was a little bit of weirdness um
at the Press briefing and during Dev day
um where it seemed like something was a
little off but so I don't know if it
goes as far back as that or not we do
have some details coming out of that all
hands meeting so first of all uh Mira
moradi who is the openai interim CEO was
the COO by the way well we'll talk about
her in a moment very capable leader uh
told St according to the information um
told staff that uh that Microsoft uh had
the wait okay sorry I'm just like
reading in real time uh its relationship
with micros Microsoft was stable and
that uh sat Y andella and Kevin Scott
the CTO of Microsoft had expressed the
utmost confidence in open AI following
the news so clearly they've been
communicating that way and Ilia sger
who's the uh Chief AI researcher told uh
the staff the experience will make us
feel closer as they pick up the pieces
from alman's departure so that's what
they're saying inside the company where
does the you know we we so as we try to
figure out what happened where does the
loss of Sam Alman leave this company I
mean it seems like they really were in
the hits business as all this technology
was starting to be commoditized and
while he wasn't playing like the chief
product manager role like he plays a big
role in terms of what they develop what
they develop and how they decide to bet
on those hits right absolutely I mean in
some ways you could say you know why
care so much about Sam Alman he wasn't
you know the brains the scientist behind
the AI behind the large language model
but he was the face of open AI I mean
for the past year he's been arguably the
most forward-facing person in AI he's
built the company he's been out there on
a world tour touting uh uh gp4 and
Beyond and he's been there every step of
the way so it's hard to imagine that
this doesn't kind of rock the boat uh
pretty
significantly um you know so yeah I'm
I'm interested to see what happens but
more than a cheerleader right he's
actually like the he's like he's the he
came to this company as this you know
formerly the CEO of Y combinator they
built Chad jpt and do on the Transformer
model which was developed inside Google
what has made open aai what it is is a
keen sense of how to take existing
technology and turn it into products and
who better to do that than someone
that's run a startup incubator you
effectively need to be doing that to
remain competitive so and I think there
was something about uh he also you know
he really t that he didn't have equity
in open AI he he really seemed so
focused on open ai's mission to develop
AGI to benefit Humanity so I feel like
that put him in this like really
interesting place where people felt like
he was straddling that balance between
the nonprofit side that it had been
previously and the profit side that it
was moving towards in a commercial way
but talk about the competitive side
right now because if you lose that type
of product thinker
at the top that startup thinker at the
top does open AI have the ability to
compete in this much more heated up
competitive world I mean before in the
early days right a year ago it was just
GPT 3.5 GPT 4 now you have that you have
anthropic you have Gemini around the
corner from Google you have uh you even
have grock I mean you know the list goes
on you also have Microsoft itself which
which a year ago was not competing with
its investment in open AI but ever since
then has and Microsoft 365 co-pilot just
yesterday I think came out as like its
full product release so I feel like that
you
know that uh that timing is very in
interesting as well but talk again about
just let's get to the competitiveness
though right like are they goingon to be
able to remain competitive in this fast
f in this fast moving field without him
I think so I mean I I I don't feel like
open AI was just Sam Alman I mean I
think that uh you know Greg Brockman I
think ilas sger I think Meera I think
there's a lot of people in place I'm
sure that there that that sense of
mission and the product itself I mean if
gp5 is already in the works then you
know I can't imagine that things would
just completely go Haywire but I do
think this rocks the boat and leaves an
open space for competitors we're talking
anthropic we're talking Microsoft we're
talking Google and Amazon that to me
seems like the biggest implication right
is that you're in a very Fierce fight
you need the full team you need the A
Team on the field and football analogy
but like you lose your quarterback
you're in trouble I guess it depends who
they choose as their next quarterback so
let's talk about the backup quarterback
not to kill this analogy any worse than
we have uh Mir moradi the CEO very
impressive background uh with Tesla
working on AI she's shephered a lot of
the chaty PT and Dolly work what what
more can you tell us about
her um you know she's also been out
there as a strong face for open AI um
and you know I I can't imagine that she
wouldn't be I think I was just looking
on Twitter and there was already some
kind of like gaming out there of who was
uh leading in the race for the role and
Mira moradi was leading the pack but um
you know so I think she a Perman CE what
as permanent that she might end Perman
that would makes sense to me yeah but
but yes so but okay so people think that
she's what about her makes her someone
who you think would have the chops to
run this thing like I'm not questioning
it I'm just kind of curious to hear
about her characteristics and the work
that she's done in the past that would
that would make her the right fit that
made the board think that she'd be the
right fit for interim CEO well I think
as far as interim CEO I feel like the
fact that was CTO you know put her in
the right position perhaps I mean I'm
very interested to know why Greg
Brockman stepped down from the board but
you know it sounds like you know it
wasn't for him to be in that position so
I feel like it was sort of a natural
place for her to step up you know she
was front and center in at Dev day um so
it would make sense that she would be
the interim person I'm not necessarily
sure that she's going to be the pick for
a permanent CEO and I actually haven't
reported that much on her specifically
so I I feel like I'm not the best person
to comment on her um but um you know I
definitely see that she'll be firmly in
the mix for sure there was a fortune
profile of her that said that she led
the dolly development the chaty PT
development she was crucial in the
partnership with Microsoft she has all
these beliefs about trying to achieve
artificial general intelligence so she
might slot right in I mean I definitely
feel like whoever is the next CEO would
have to be someone who is as firmly
devoted to that mission as merera as Sam
because everything I've read everything
I've you know heard about the company
what's right on their homepage and
website what their board is all about
that we've been talking about is that
mission they're that they're constantly
Mission critical you know AGI or bust
okay and there's even more news that's
been breaking this is coming from axios
Microsoft was blinds cided by open AI
ouster of CEO Sam Alman uh Ena freed
says it's biggest partner uh one that
has invested billions in the company
learned a minute before the rest of the
world that Alman was out so obviously
incredible that's incredible you know
we've talked a lot about Mission and
about say I'm not taking equity and I
think this is an important moment to
just pause and talk about a theme we've
discussed on this podcast a bunch which
is that like when someone tells you that
they're interested and like they're
bettering the greater good of the world
asked some questions I mean it's
interesting that Altman who had this
whole like we're going to retrieve AGI
we're going to repair the world we're
going to do Universal B basic income etc
etc did something I mean clearly he did
something either it was this weird power
struggle that we're gonna find out about
or what seems anyway I won't put a
probability on it but or he did
something so bad that the board decided
to fire him and not tell Microsoft you
know the fact I mean that's just
mindboggling Microsoft it's not even
like just that Microsoft is open ai's
biggest investor it was just reported
that open AI was looking for more money
a big infusion of more money all
pointing to that mission of building AGI
together and then there's this complex
um relationship between Microsoft a and
open AI the the nonprofit side the
for-profit company that the the two
sides of open Ai and and the complex
negotiations that must have been put in
place uh to make that happen so the idea
that Microsoft wouldn't be in the loop
here is is incredible astonishing now
open AI is kind of a weird company right
it's got this like cap profit and uh uh
status and a non nonprofit origin yes
was always a little bit a strange setup
and it's like you know then they built
these like extremely viable commercial
products but they're goal was to reach
artificial general
intelligence I mean I'm sure there's
some coherent thread through it all but
it just feels
like like I don't know I don't know a
science project meant to go wrong which
it clearly has I feel like the you know
that the idea behind it was to set up
from their standpoint was to set up a
way to be able to fund their mission
while um you know while still uh
offering a commercial opportunity so
that it could be a win-win um but I and
and and in that way kind of creating an
entirely new governance uh way of
governing a company that like this is
very unusual the setup that they have
with Microsoft it's really something
very brand new and this piece that I
wrote that I mentioned uh the lawyers I
spoke to said that they said it's very
unusual kind of setup they had not seen
anything like that before but you know
anthropic also has like an unusual set
up as well um in their goals towards AGI
so this I thought that this was starting
to be some kind of like a new trend but
perhaps in this case it's you know who
knows what's going to happen you know as
you were talking to me I was like this
sounds like very like FTX is not not the
Ponzi scheme but this whole like we're
going to set up a corporate structure to
achieve our mission which was kind of
like the same thing as Sam bigman freed
and then reading your piece it turns out
there is a link I mean it's not the
Ponzi scheme link but there are board
members who are close to this effective
altruism movement that was and I'm not
saying this has anything to do with
Sam's departure or anything like that we
just don't know but it is interesting
that the EA movement right this
effective altruism we're going to try to
like maximize our expected value and do
whatever we can you know to make more
money so that we can end up you know
saving more lives in the future it's
represented on the open AI board what
can you tell us about that well that's
what actually drew me to write that
story in the beginning is I had um read
a a thread um from Logan Kilpatrick
who's at open AI um when some news was
coming out about Microsoft uh uh
possibly infusing more money into open
Ai and um uh you know I I took a
Kilpatrick sort of put a thread of right
from the open a AI website their
structure page which talks about how the
company is set up and one of those areas
said that discussed the nonprofit board
alongside the for-profit entity and one
of the points on that structure page
explains that a six member nonprofit
board of directors is the half dozen
group that will decide when open aai has
quote unquote attained AGI um when I
looked into the members of that board
there are three employee members um Sam
Alman now gone Greg Brockman president
now resigned from off the board but
still at the company and Ilia who is the
chief scientist and there are three
other
non-employee um board members um who
seem very unrelated but um they all have
some have had some tie if you Google
their names if you look them up online
there are ties to the effective altruism
movement when I reached out to open AI
they got back to me with statements
saying that none of the board members
are
quote effective altruists um but that
and that the three non-employee board
members do not align with effective
altruism in that way but it was kind of
like shaded a little bit like yes one is
on a board but it's only because they're
not so closely tied to the community um
so there was a little hedging there but
there's no doubt that they do have some
ties and even open AI itself has long
had some ties you know again not saying
that they are part of the movement but
they definitely have had some ties that
I I talk about in the article really
rough moment for Effective altruism
maybe we can stop taking this stuff at
face value okay this is coming from uh
Hacker News so just a comment it's total
speculation but you know why not talk
about it so someone says uh put the
pieces together November 6 open AI Dev
day with feature with new features of
the build your own chat PT and more
November 9th Microsoft Cuts employees
off from chat GPT due to security
concerns November 15th openai announces
no new chat GPT plus signups November
17th openai fir Sam Alman put the
threads together one Theory the new
release has a serious security issue say
is just speculation leaked a bunch of
data and it wasn't disclosed disclosed
but Microsoft knew about it this
wouldn't be the first time in March
there was an incident where users were
seeing their private chats of other
users further extending the theory
prioritizing getting to Market over Road
security privacy testing and this most
recent release caused something much
much larger sounds feasible to you it
doesn't align with what we just said
about Microsoft just finding out knowing
yeah EX exactly okay take that Microsoft
not knowing out of the this is of course
speculation take him
out potentially something feasible
sounds like well it would explain why
Greg Brockman would have resigned from
the board there there could be that
connection because I feel like that's
still an open question but there's also
this like you know this there's such a
tolerance for bad data leaks in Silicon
Valley like it had to be more than that
it seems like I agree I feel like it has
definitely to be more than that okay
that can't be and again you know when we
when we think about how this happen so
quickly that this is the afternoon on a
Friday towards the end of the Stock
Market opening um I feel like it's more
than that the stock market so I put this
on Twitter that the um Microsoft stock
slipped about 1.5% immediately after the
news dropped now people told me you know
not a large amount it's just 1.5% the
company's going to be fine still a$ 2.73
trillion Market market cap but that you
know that decline accounts for just you
know a cool few dozen billion dollars
right um is is that so how do how should
we read that is a problem for Microsoft
that he's gone I do think it's a problem
for Microsoft if he's gone for you know
it again it raises questions you know
again SAA Adela was with uh Sam Alman on
stage at Dev day touting their
relationship that they'd be building AGI
together the fact that if it becomes
quite public that they didn't know until
a minute before that doesn't look for
good for Microsoft does it um I feel
like you know catching Microsoft
flat-footed would seem very odd um so I
I I definitely think in a variety of
ways it doesn't bode well for Microsoft
Just In This Moment of course I don't
think it necessarily means
anything huge uh in the long game but
who knows I mean I definitely just think
this is a big mic drop and and there'll
be a lot of Fallout over the weekend
right yeah exactly and it's not the mic
drop you do after you have a proud uh
moment it's the mic drop where the mic
slips out of your hands and you
embarrassingly have to go pick it up Sam
Alman uh tweets I loved my time in open
AI it was transformative for me
personally and hopefully the world a
little bit most of all I loved working
with such talented people will have more
to say about what's next later I mean
people are like well who cares about
what's next what about what happened but
this it will come out there's no doubt
that it will come out and I thought that
that tweet kind of was a little funny
like if it was something absolutely
horrifying I seems like he wouldn't put
out that tweet but I don't know right uh
so okay final question for you who wins
and who loses from
this well I definitely think that open
AI loses at least in the short term I
think there's going to I I don't think
they that we've seen this kind of
upheaval from them I feel like they've
been such steady rocks all year long um
especially in this incredible wave like
I feel like for a what's still a small
company I think people forget you know
that it's still a small company I think
it still only has a few hundred
employees um you know they've obviously
been shouldering quite a lot and you
know both in terms of developing and
building but also criticism lawsuits you
know all sorts of things
um you know and and you've never seen
any kind of crack in that this year I
don't think I feel like everyone's been
very tight together kind of steady Pace
that's my been my observation so I think
that that to me that's partly why this
comes as such a shock because it feels
so off off off for for open AI um I
think
Microsoft it remains to be seen I wonder
if they could be seen as a winner in
some ways depending on what the deal is
that they have with open AI it possibly
could be an opening for competitors as
you say but um you know I I I do think
that when we learn more about what
really happened the winners and losers
will become more clear yeah um we should
definitely do some of the jokes uh one
was one was mine where I was like man if
we find out there were people typing
behind chat GPT this entire time it's
gonna be crazy
that was the thing that he was
concealing there were a lot of people
doing the joke that um you know the
first person to lose their job because
of chat PT with Sam Alman right that
chat PT can replace CEOs and then uh
finally like oh how ironic is it that
you know someone was inconsistent in
their
communication got
fired I mean this might look terrible we
find out the cause and it turns out to
be something totally awful but in the
meantime in the meantime we can have a
little
little laugh yeah Sharon Goldman thanks
so much for joining this been an
emergency edition of big technology
podcast uh more to come as we learn more
but we wanted to get something on the
feed can't thank you enough by the way
uh tell people where to find your
writing yes you can find my writing at
venturebeat.com I'm Sharon Goldman I
cover Ai and you have you have a a
newsletter or you have a Twitter also
have a substack I have a Twitter at
sharon. Goldman you can check out there
Sharon gold on Twitter terrific X thank
you Sharon thank you everybody for
listening emergency we did it quickly
we'll be back on the on the feed for
sure but wanted to get you at least the
very basic story the implications and if
you're waking up to this news well holy
moly I mean it's going to take a long
time for it to settle in that'll do it
for us here we'll see you next time on
big technology
podcast